The State of B2B SaaS Marketing with Chris Walker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Walker’s on fire.

He’s a high-profile B2B marketing thought leader.

His LinkedIn posts generate huge engagement.

His agency, Refine Labs, is red-hot.

But here’s the interesting thing: 

Not that long ago, Chris wasn’t the belle of the B2B ball.

Many of his ideas about B2B marketing were dismissed.

Hard to believe, right?

On the Marketing Spark podcast, Chris said:

“For the first five to seven years of my career, everyone thought my marketing ideas were not smart, and they didn’t want me to do the things that I was doing like podcasts. 

They were heavily scrutinized at all the companies that I worked for.”

Chris’ frustration and appetite to do the marketing he wanted led to the creation of Refine Labs. 

I it's Mark Evens and you're listeningto markes, if you're active on Linkin or babymarketer criswold likely meets no production. Chris is a Mersi one of theleading voices and the PT Marketing World is insight. Data brand contentdrive market success as a Trago, a huge audience I mean agency. We find labsfor Red Hot business. Welcome to MARKE SPARK RIS mark. I am come to be on hereand I appreciate the intra looking forward to to dive in into that. It's an obvious statement, but the VDlandscape to dramatically changed in two thousand and twenty was thereanything in particular that surprised you good or bad. The thing that it didn't suit. Didn'tsurprise me, but I think it's important to note is that I that companies hadn't spent the time tofigure out other things to do than physical events. That's like, I think,the number one thing it was when I started to recognize this for thecompany that I worked for as an employee in two thousand and seventeenand started moving into digital and seeing how much better it was workingthan our physical event strategy that that I started talking about it. Ithought that people would start to pick up on it, try and build those differentskills and muscles and different things, and I think a lot of companies got caught there and had to spend sometime really trying to figure out how to do it, which might have caused somechallenges in terms of business growth. It's an interesting statement becauseit seems fairly obvious. A lot of bebb companies spent sixty seventy percentof their marketing budgets going to conferences attending cocuressponsoring buying awards. All that thing do you think that a lot ofcompanies and marketers got caught by surprise when they realized they wereso dependent on conferences to drive, leads into nurture prospects? I imaginethat they were surprised, but I think when people look back in two or three years, they'llrecognize it as a good thing. If you...

...isolate it to the company strategy,because I think a lot of companies would have gone a long time, notfiguring those things out and eventually one of their competitorswould have done it and perhaps put them out of business, we'll get into a conferences later. Oneof the things I want to ask you about is at the beginning of two thousand andtwenty March April, a lot of B companies thought the world was comingto an end. Business was going to go down the drain. The the economy, whowas going to go into a state of inertia and a lot of them, are reacted very, Iwould say violently, by laying off marketing staff, cutting back on salesand market activities, which is to be expected, but then they realized thatthe world wasn't coming to an end and that business was going to be actuallypretty good, if not really good, for a lot of companies. How do you thinkmarketers reacted to this sudden, realization that things could actuallybe good and they actually had to do some marketing to accelerate thebusiness? Not Not just keep it alive yeah. So I think I think a lot ofpeople reacted that way. I'd be lying if I said that we didn't, as ourcompany react, that way as well, and we were able to get through that time quite smoothly,and so I expect a lot of other people, especially in cloud, were able to do asimilar thing. It's variable marketing expenses are thefirst thing to get cut when something is up to get when you need to makebudget cuts, and so I'm not necessarily surprised that that is what happened,but it's really interesting, hintit, two thousand and twenty. When you lookback that that was actually the place where you wanted to go harder and what we saw, because we continuedto run media for several. You know more than a dozen btsan es during that time,and because everyone else had moved down, the prices of the ads wereridiculous. Twenty five percent of what they would normally be for a two monthperiod of time right, and so we...

...capitalized on that component, not thatbuyers were specifically in by mode necessarily but driving awareness andproduct consideration and different things like that through that media, ata very low cost, I think, was a good move as we head into the second half oftwo thousand and twenty is interesting, because when we started thisconversation you're in Boston, where things seem to be going back to normal,I'm up here north of the border in Toronto, where we're still locked downand things seem like we're sort of in a holding pattern. But overall it feelslike we're poised for a marketing reset, but the rules of engagement aren'tentirely clear yet and I'm curious about whether you think companies willcontinue to embrace and explore new or different marketing approaches orwhether they'll snap back to the old normal. However, you want to do finenormal. So the idea is all the things they've learned last year: All thethings they did differently will all that be tossed aside and they'll justgo back to what feels comfortable. I think we'll see something like a bellcurve on this one. I think that you'll see companies that that regrets that go back to spendingsixty or seventy percent on events, maybe because they weren't successfulduring this period of time on digital or content, because you don't just snapyour fingers and magically get good at producing continent. People likeunderstanding your customers deeply distributed on the Internet, buildingan audience understanding how to run media against it. Like you, don't youdon't just figure those things out immediately, and so I imagine that alot of companies haven't truly been able to figure that out. I think that alot of companies have probably ripped and replaced the intent of what aphysical event is about and then just done that digitally, but boost atvirtual trade shows run as many Weben ars as possible to get weeds like thosetypes of things, and I think that there will be other companies that havelearned a lot of different things during this time period and continue toprogress forward. I think, if I had to decide as an executive which bucket Iwould want to be, I would the real...

...bucket I would have want to been in isthat I knew exactly what I needed to know before this happened, so that Itruly capitalized on this situation relative to competitors. But if I'm notin that bucket, then we need to be taking these learnings and continuingto progress forward. I think this could be look back on it as a dramatic shiftand how be tobe companies do market I've been talking about it for a longtime be to be. Companies tend to run heavy led gen model so that their salesteam could do sales to people that don't want to buy, and I think thatmarketing should be a lot more focused on creating demand in the market sothat outbound works more effectively. We hear that from plenty of ourcustomers after twelve months of executing that hey are outbound, opportunities have gone up by four Xand we didn't really change that much. You know what I mean, and so there'ssome element that just people more people know about you and then you'realso driving more inbound demand or when buyers are moving into bine cycles.They're going to come to you first, and so I think that's what a majority of companies, if notall, should be transitioning to over this time, and this this period oftwelve fourteen months or whatever we've been in the sport, I think,should have been the catalyst for this change. It's interesting that youmentioned virtual conferences, Comin, because in some respects it felt liketrying to fit a square Pak into a round hole that they really wanted to doconferences, because it's what they know. So a lot of companies and Oconferences needed to make money right conferences, don't have their don'thave their events. They go out of business. I know we're going todifferent path here, but what it's interesting that you mentioned that,because you know when I look at conferences typical, B to b conferences.A lot of the speakers are sponsors who paid to get on stage. You know the programming in general isprobably anybody in the audit because probably get on stage and speak becausewe're all pretty smart people. We all have insight and I think the realopportunity for conferences is becoming connection catalyst like. I think, oneof the reasons why I linked in has been C being such a powerful platform overthe last year. Is it made it so easy to...

...connect its scale or relative scale andallowed people to give in people permission to introduce themselves topeople through connection? So the reason we're connected is, through yourcontent, be engaging with you and connecting, and I just honestly thinkthe conferences need to focus on connections more than content, becausethat's where the real value is in those in those spontaneous and internationsure. Let's talk about this instead from an opportunity from a companystandpoint and so from a company standpoint, youshould be trying to create a content strategy, that's better than theconference that happened all year round, not just in three days that for onlythe people that are able to travel there and so I've taken that mind senseis two thousand and seventeen. When I started to see that all the buyers weregoing there and I would pay attention to who was speaking and whether or notthey were credible and what people thought about their presentations anddifferent things like that, and then I would bring them on our own channelsright with the intention of producing a media entity that produces content thatour buyers want to listen to more than the conference. I think that's a greatNorth Star for company a massive opportunity. I don't know why thatgiven were in two thousand and twenty one, and we see the middle man gettingsqueezed out in every other industry, like taxi cabs and with Amazon and alot of different real estate. There's a ton of places like that, but we stillwant to go through a conference to engage with our buyer when we can do iton our own, and so I'm just really challenging people to think about thatcomponent, like the benefit of a conference like you mentioned, is thata lot of people are physically there, and so, when I think about that, Ithink about the idea of being able to create content with the six bestexperts in the world, because they're all there and that's the only time thatthey're together once a year right. I think about the idea of being able todo a ton of market research that you would most companies would never createa budget for somebody to go out and go to twenty twenty differentcustomers anddo that research on their own. We used...

...to do product research, we would buy asweet and have people come up and give feedback on future products that weredeveloping pricing strategies. Different thing, pricing tolerances,different things like that and then another opportunity for marketers is toactually go. Follow your target buyer around depending on what theconferences and see which sessions they go to, who they listen to what theythink about it, and then try and compare what you think about it. And soI think, there's a lot o there's a lot else outside of the booth. That is themost value and a conference, and I would from a sale standpoint. Iwould scrap the booth and I would set up your set up your meetings in advanceand do it over dinner at a coffee shop at an event or different things likethat and readopt that cash elsewhere. So it's an entirely new mind set whereon new approach, the conferences rather than sort of the same standard, I'mgoing to sponsor I'm going to attend, you know and the cones isn't going. Theconference isn't going away because you didn't buy a boot there right. A bunchof other companies are going to waste their money on it, and so, but you canbe the smart one that spend the the definition, not necessarily thedefinition, but the goal of marketing is to create the most impact for the least amount of dollars, and soone of the way and one of the ways that you can do that is you can scrutinizebig expenses, and we just mentioned sixty to seventy per cent. I've done.I've literaly done this for five to years, going to companies seeing theirtrade to expense, matching it against actual sales data and and calculatingthe Roy showing that to executives presenting them with a different idea.That's going to work better, that's already been proven in a pilot and thenstart moving money somewhere else. Speaking of moving money, I want to askyou about the structure of B B Marketing teams, given that a lot oftactical execution has been outsource to consultants, agencies, freelancersand contractors, do you think that B companies will staff up again or do youthink lean and mean is the way to go and that marketing teams will be morestrategic? They'll have some key...

...tactical assets in house, but a lot ofthose activities can be done more efficiently if they're done by a thirdparty, agree or disagree, it's interesting because I'm not seeing thesame trend, so maybe we're maybe we're looking at two different segments ofthe market. I think that companies are trying to take more in house if I was the c Mo or the CEO of a fivehundred person Sass comb. My objective long term would be to do almosteverything in house and what I would insert external partners andconsultants for innovation and frameworks and different things likethat that my team can move on and implement. Now when we think about the thing thatcan't be outsource, I mentioned this a couple of times. I really want tohammer home the thing that you cannot outsource. Is the customer intimacy,deep understanding of your customer M, and I, and so, if you, if youprioritize that, I don't see, I actually don't see companies prioritiesat enough. I interact with you know hundreds a month, it's like that is thenumber one thing that you are not able to outsource they're out sourcing, allthese different things so but a little Bo, but you got to spend the time reallyunderstand your customers because it drives your strategy. All. I believethat you could theoretically outsource everything else, except for that notthat I would recommend it, but that's. I think the component of company shouldreally focus on, but what's interesting, when you read alot of linked on post in this, maybe marketers talking to marketers is theidea of knowing your customers and there's post after post about customerinsight and really understanding their needs and interesting to me, that'smarketing one on one like you should be intimate with you Daser, as you say,but our marketers not doing that. Are they simply sort of operatingtheoretically or making educated guesses, when in fact, they should be sittingbeside sales and on sales calls and on sales metes? And things like that, Ithink there's a difference between what someone perceives as understanding acustomer versus what it actually is, and so the first step in that processis clearly defining who your customer...

...is. I don't see a lot of companies dothat well, either and so clearly defining who your customer is forcesyou to make choices around who that is and look deeper than just company sizeand job title, and so that would be step one and then once you've trulyidentified that that target, then you can actually narrow in, and you startgetting the psychographic and things that do not play across that whole spanof people, and so that's what I think people should really be focused on atthis point. Community and content can help you attract those people easily,and so that's sort of an interesting and interesting framework to play byyou have written a lot about the I don't know if it's the obsession orfascination with quantify marketing performance and you've emphasized thatmarketing success can happen in ways they can't be measured. So what's thehealthy balance between quantitative and qualitative assessment when itcomes to marketing yeah, I mean what what's clarify a couple of things. Ione hundred percent believe that you should be able to quantify thee impactof marketing inside of your company. I just think the way that it's done rightnow is not not smart, and so the way that I think that it should be done isthe idea of how many people are coming to your website, asking to buy and thenand then buy, and how is that growing and how much expense is is facilitatedin order to get people to do that relative to the revenue that getsreturned. The reason that you focus on that point is because you win them atthe highest rate. They have the shortest sale cycles. They have thelowest customer acquisition, cost it's going to help your sales team, becausethey're getting deals or they don't need to go and hunt for, and so youwant over time. You want more of your overall revenue contribution comingthrough that flow, for the reason that I just laid out, and so that's why Iwant marketers to focus there, and if you focus there, then you can thinkabout how do I get all of it? One if you focus on a sing, your a funnelthrough your website. It breaks you free from needing leg, Gen channelattribution on every channel which incentives marketers to not use theones that are most effective today, and so that would be the initial part ofthe framework. Now the things that are...

...difficult to quantify are that weproduced a piece of content, somebody liked it they shared it with theirfriends, Susie susie liked it and then nine months later, Susi's boss, Janecomes and by something never going to. You know it would still get caught atthe war measuring market on the way that they come in to buy so like. Ifyou change your measurement model, you would still attribute that in the rightway, in my view, but you're not going to know that clear path and I think thething that sub optim or just frankly not smart, is that companies think thatthey can measure that and they can't, and so they give credit to things thatdon't don't necessarily make the most impact. Another thing that you'd not be able tomeasure is one that I mentioned before, which is the idea that, because you've executed marketingreally well, that your sales output actually works a lot better, but that'sincredibly difficult to quantify, because there's too many variableschanging and there's no real tracking around that. So that's another thingthat I would consider difficult to measure, but the increase in outboundeffectiveness, the long term position of your brand. That gives you acompetitive advantage. Those are all things that are upside, I'm saying ifyou just measured the marketing impact against website source revenue relativeto spend that that makes sense on its own and then you're getting all thesethings that are difficult to measure as extras right, and so I think peopleshould should move to for the reasons that I laid out, mainly becauseexecutives cannot get off the fact of the Google ad wards. Two Thousand andtwelve mind set that you need to say somebody went here, they click their ad,they converted and they bought something like it's just a linear model,and this this case, and you know for some transactional sales or product ledsure, but for enterprise sales you're going to spend a lot of money andyou're going to waste a lot of your sales teams time. I guess I follow upquestions that would be from marketers who buy into your approach to quantityof of performances. How do you convince your co that that this is the way to gobecause a lot of COS, as you mentioned,...

...it's cause an effect. If I do this,this should happen, but when that doesn't happen, then marketing bearsthe brunt of that by showing them the differences between the performance ofthose different marketing funnels, and it becomes very obvious. I go inand do this probably done this with twenty five companies in the past fivemonths, all of their league gen models when it point one percent with longsale cycles and they spend all of their advertising dollars on them. And thenyou have all these people that are coming through your website that arebuying that have not engaged with those ads that are winning at seven per cent thathave the shortest sale cycles. Out of all the different sources of revenuethat contribute. Eighty per cent or more of marketing's revenue on thatsystem alone, and so it would be much easier to starttrying to build on that. A much more productive, efficient engine versuscontinuing to throw money at something, that's terribly inefficient andactually has human resources downstream as drs or as they need to fall up withthem, which is a huge hidden cost on an incredibly expensive asset. And as youstart to scale as if you're trying to grow revenue and you're working off ofthat really inefficient system, you're going to need more more head count thanyou actually need you're going to need to spend way more advertising dollarsan you actually need and oover time the system will break. There are plenty ofcompanies that are at sixty million are. Are that don't have great ne Netrevenue attention that have too many sales and marketing people and havecapped out their digital advertising spen to a point where there's dramatic,diminishing returns and who wants to get to sixty million in revenue and bein that situation? Having consumed a lot of your linked in content andlisten to your podcast state of Amanda, you have thoughts out of liverite oftopics so for fun. Let's do a rapid fire segment on some of the differentmarketing activities and all mention a co of these channels, and you can youcan fire off what you think we talked to it a little bit about this beforebut conferences? Will they come back? How will they come back? What are yourthoughts on that over and companies are over investedit?Is this rapid fire for me? So so I like...

...a quick answer, I'll go further. Youtell me you can go a little further on that. Okay, yeah I mean I, I think thatthey're going to come from the conferences standpoint, the industryconferences have no incentive to innovate, zero, they can every yearthey continue to raise their prices and companies still continue to pay it, andso they have no incentive to do anything more than the exact same thingthey keep doing and the only way that you incentive them to do more ascompanies start challenging that model and companies are not going tochallenge that model at enough scale any time soon for anyone to change, andso when I'm recommending is for one smart company to do something differentas a point of challenging that drives dramatically more impact, while stillsiphoning off of the real value of a trade show which is not the booth, andI think company should try. It face book advertising still very impact ful,but was dramatically more impact ful in two thousand and eighteen linked in advertising over priced, but catching up in termsof overall overall engagement. Second thing I'll add not enough reach, and so, while you see very largeaudiences when they build the data inside of linked in because everyone'sprofile matches your things go. Look at how many people actually get deliveredyour ads and it's not a lot. And so, if you are in a you know, I would I wouldsay any type of velocity sale. Less than a hundred and twenty eight salecycle you're going to really struggle to hit scale on linked in, which is whywe supplement with face book and Instar M and other channels. A lot ofcompanies only run linked in and display, and I think it's a hugemistake. Field marketing could use some updates to theactivities that they do to drive the most impact ab misunderstood and from a strategystandpoint. It makes perfect sense at an execution level. Companies reallyreally suck at it. Something close to the hard podcast ing, incrediblyunderrated for the potential impact and,...

...incredibly under resourced by mostcompanies that do it in terms of WHO's, the actual host of the podcast, howmuch time they're investing and different things like that, andcompanies just fail to see the dramatic impact that it can have if theyexecuted it well, they'd her pound, a girl in the room, content, marketing two stuck in so two thousand and elevenokay, email marketing, effective but overrated by a lot ofcompanies because of the fact that they can measure it. Public Relations requires a face, lift on how it's done.I think a lot of companies still run the PR play from two. You know twothousand and two where they put a press release in the wire and hope somebodypicks it up and in the future the I have mentioned this several times. I'mgoing to go into depth and a hear. The actual model is to build owned PRchannels that demonstrate expertise and create and command attention right,which then opens up earned opportunities rather than hiring a PRfirm, paying them twenty five grand to send cold emails to try and get you onsome show. We've been doing that exact strategy. I can talk you throughexactly what happens? We have been Xi. You know own channels maybe linked in and podcast we. I was initially asked for free,consulting calls and then to go on other people's podcast, which continuesto grow and now and then an article was written about my company and Forbes,and now we're getting asked to speak at conferences that the other people thatvendors will pay twenty thousand dollars for someone at their companyspeak. We get, we get invited to do it for free and companies are asking us todo key notes for their team, which is content, marketing business development, AB m all in oneand so yeah. I think I think, there's a huge opportunity in leveraging third party channels that havecredibility. You could argue that an...

...influencer is a form of PR or pris aninfluencer. You could argue both of those things back and forth, and so Ithink that I think that companies should really think about how they'reexecuting there, because it's to be really impact ul word of mouth, the thing that drives the most buyingdecisions and beat a B to day and nobody in B to be actually recognizesit and finally positioning. I would say that it's something that'simportant, that I think companies spend a lot of time on that they have a good positioning and then,when it actually gets moved into quote, unquote production or where somebodywould actually read it all of the teeth in it gets cut out because ofbureaucracy. Great Great Awesome, thank you forparticipating in that little bit of yeah. That was fun. I could. I could dothat for hours. Finally, there's a lot of talks aboutthe value of personal branding on linked in more linked in there's a lotof talk about personal branding and personally, I think a lot of peopleoverthink it. I think it comes down to being a good person doing the rightthings delivering value all the things that are just make you a good person,both professionally personally, as someone with a large personal brand.What's been your approach to personal brand? Do you think about personalbrandy? No, I think about producing contentthat people like which allows them to consider my company when they have aproblem that we can solve and so like this is, I don't consider it personalbrand. I call consider it content marketing with effective distributionthat drives a narrative for your company into the market in an effectiveway that people like, and so everyone personal brand, is not a new thing justbecause people have put a tag on it right, like in one thousand ninehundred and eighty there were people in Boston that were significantly morewell known than other people in Boston. Those people had a reputation aboutbeing good at something. Maybe they...

...were a good lawyer? Maybe they were agood, you know, CPA or whatever, and they got more business because morepeople knew about them and reckon recommended them. It's the same thingthat's going on here. I do believe that a lot of people overthink it think it'sabout providing value. I think it's about talking about the things that youknow that can help people. I think it's about building a community listening towhat people are saying as a feedback loop, but you know generally being helpful. Final question want to find a question:what's it like to be regarded as a marketing thought leader, it's a bit ofan awkward question, but I I got to ask it and how do you handle the demands onyour time to do podcast speaking at events and all the things that you doat refine laps? Is it a tough balancing act these days? I think that it's interesting and I'm grateful that people would call youknow refer to me as that. It's interesting, though, because throughoutthe first five to seven years of my career, everyone thought that all of mymarket ideas were not smart and they didn't want me to do the things thatI'm doing like producing a podcast and different things like that. They gotscrutinized heavily in the companies that I worked for, and so it's just andthe interesting thing is that all of the things that I do right now and allthe things that I say I might be able to say them more clearly, but I wouldknew them all and I was saying them to the companies that I work for andtrying to do those things in two thousand and seventeen right, and so itwas it's nice now and the reason that I was able to do that is that I took theleap to start a company because I couldn't find a company to work, forthat would actually let me do marketing the way that I wanted, and so I wantedto create an environment where I could be innovated and testing and doing alot of cool stuff for a lot of sophisticated companies, which is whatwe're doing right now. On my time side. This is not a matter of. Do you haveenough time as an executive, the the there's two components: it's one areyou committed to it were committed to.

It is driving our narrative. It'sdriving our business at three hundred four hundred percent year over yeargrowth and multiple years in a row. Massive brand out comes big V C privateequity relationships. That would have that other people spend a bunch of time,cold, caldy and sending direct mail and never get a meeting. These big firmsare coming to us because of the work that we're doing so totally committedto the impact of it. The second part is building the infrastructure of a greatteam that can execute on things so that I can prioritize this, and so we have an incredibly talented andcapable team many people that are better at a lot of things in marketingthan I am, and so I'm happy to put those people in a position where theycan be really successful and have a lot of fun doing it, and so that's the waythat we we work on it. But no it's not. I don't consider it demanding. Iconsider it my aside from our people and then our customer success. It's mynumber one job. I guess I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to tell mewhat refined labs does for most people know you. They may not be aware of whatyou actually do behind the scenes or in front of the scenes, depending on howyou look at it. So maybe I can look snap shot on the refined lab story yeah,so I I believe in the future that companies will start to try to move towhat I call category winning demand. Marketing, which includes threecomponents, includes a brand component that would include events. Organic social community,burned PR influence air relationships, content things like that. The secondcomponent would be demand a one to many or one to few based on company forMorphic, targeting through a paid distribution model across the Internetthat informs buyers drives a ton of different content through guaranteeddelivery, using paid media, and then the third pillar would be an abmarschwhich is one to one for significant deals. I'm I'm thinking two hundred andfifty or five hundred thousand dollar...

...deals, or above only that you'retargeting less than twenty accounts, and each single account is gettingspecific campaign. So, if you're creating a piece, if you're doing acampaign for an account, then you're going to send them a a podcast episodethat you did where you broke down their strategy or provided something likethat. I see almost no company execute that way, because it's sales driven abM, not marketing content or of an AB, and so I believe that companies willtry and get to that outcome, and so that's what we believe and so ofcompanies believe in that our job at refine labs is to help companies getthere as quickly as possible. First by fixing demand because it creed it had,creates the most short term impact possible and a one to many model thatallows you to create results and build competence internally on what to donext would be the brand component so advising on. How do you build a podcasttime you get or dex social going? If you were going to do events in adifferent way than your sales events or conferences that you do right now, whatwould you do if we were going to do influence ormarketing? What would we do? We know how to do those things and the lastthing would be Abama, taking a lot of the operational infrastructure, INGcontent created from demand and brand and then rolling that into a one to onemodel in ABN would be the third pillar an in the companies at, and then yourchain you're, constantly switching out the different tactics and activitiesinside of those three buckets that are generated based on targetingwhether it's paid or organic and your overall intent and where you're playing,and so you could change out tactics over time, but I think the companiesshould be playing in all three of those spaces. I think that a lot of companieslistening if they look deeply, would wouldrealize that they're not. I asked us if ever yes and I'm not sure if you needto tell people where to find you, but if people want to find out more aboutyou and your fine lads, where do they go yeah? So people love the state ofdemand, Gen podcast, it's available an apple spoting, all the other placeswhere I think crossing over fifteen...

...thousand subscribers. It's merrily onon B, to b demand demand mark and Egos. We talk about brand on a vim as wellcategory winning demand market, and we cover on that show. So that's a greatplace to find us you're looking for a while depth and then, if you're,looking for more micro stuff than you can follow Chris Walker and worked inand I publish daily, though as well. Well, Chris thanks for all right insight and thanks everybody for listening to another episode ofmarketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review anddescribed by Iton spot ify or your favorite podcast bat. If you like tolearn more about how I help you to be sans companies as a fractional, Samosstragetic adviser, coach and an email to mark and Mark Enparles,.

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