The State of B2B SaaS Marketing with Chris Walker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Chris Walker’s on fire.

He’s a high-profile B2B marketing thought leader.

His LinkedIn posts generate huge engagement.

His agency, Refine Labs, is red-hot.

But here’s the interesting thing: 

Not that long ago, Chris wasn’t the belle of the B2B ball.

Many of his ideas about B2B marketing were dismissed.

Hard to believe, right?

On the Marketing Spark podcast, Chris said:

“For the first five to seven years of my career, everyone thought my marketing ideas were not smart, and they didn’t want me to do the things that I was doing like podcasts. 

They were heavily scrutinized at all the companies that I worked for.”

Chris’ frustration and appetite to do the marketing he wanted led to the creation of Refine Labs. 

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you're listening to market e spark. If you're active on linkedin or BB marketer Chris Walker likely needs no introduction. Chris as ammers is one of the leading voices in the BDB marketing world. Is Insight. It's how data brand content to drive marketing success. As a tried to be a huge audience and made his agency we find labs or red hot business. Welcome to marquis spark, RIS mark. I am pumped to be on here and I appreciate the intro. Looking forward to the dive in in today. It's an obvious statement, but the BDB landscape dramatically changed in two thousand and twenty. was there anything in particular that surprised you, good or bad? The thing that it didn't. So it didn't surprise me, but I think it's important to note is that I that companies hadn't spent the time to figure out other things to do than physical events. M that's like, I think the number one thing it was when I started to recognize this for the company that I worked for as an employee in two thousand and seventeen and started moving into digital and see how much better it was working than our physical event strategy. That that I started talking about it, I thought that people would start to pick up on a try and build those different skills and muscles and different things, and I think a lot of companies got caught there and had to spend some time really trying to figure out how to do it, which might have caused some challenges in terms of business growth. It's an interesting statement because it seems fairly obvious a lot of bedb companies spent sixty seventy percent of their marketing budgets going to conferences, attending consurance is, sponsoring, buying awards, all that thing. Do you think that a lot of companies and marketers got caught by surprise when they realize they were so dependent on conferences to drive leads into nurture prospects? I imagine that they were surprised, but I think when people look back in two or three years they'll recognize it as a good...

...thing if you isolate it to the company strategy, because I think a lot of companies would have gone a long time not figuring those things out and eventually one of their competitors would have done it and perhaps put them out of business. Will get into conferences later. One of the things I wanted to ask you about is at the beginning of two thousand and twenty, March April, a lot of BB companies thought the world was coming to an end, business was going to go down the drain the the economy, who was going to go into a state of inertia, and a lot of them reacted very, I would say, violently by laying off marketing staff, cutting back on sales and marking activities, which is to be expected. But then they realized that the world wasn't coming to an end and that business was going to be actually pretty good, if not really good, for a lot of companies. How do you think marketers reacted to this sudden realization that things could actually be good than they actually had to do some marketing to accelerate the business, not not just keep it alive. Yeah, so I think I think a lot of people reacted that way. I'd be lying if I've said that we didn't, as our company, react that way as well, and we were able to get through that time quite smoothly, and so I expect a lot of other people, especially in cloud, were able to do a similar thing. It's variable marketing expenses are the first thing to get cut when something is up, to get when you need to make budget cuts, and so I'm not necessarily surprised that that is what happened. But it's really interesting behindsight two thousand and twenty, when you look back, that that was actually the place where you wanted to go harder. And what we saw, because we continued to run media for several, you know, more than a dozen Bob Sass companies during that time and because everyone else had moved down, the prices of the ads were ridiculous. Twenty five percent of what they would normally be for a two...

...month period of time, right, and so we capitalized on that component, not that buyers were specifically and by mode necessarily, but driving awareness and product consideration and different things like that through that media at a very low cost. I think was a good move. As we head into the second half of two thousand and twenty. Is Interesting because when we started this conversation you're in Boston, where things seem to be going back to normal. I'm up here north of the border in Toronto, where we're still locked down and things seem like we're sort of in a whold pattern. But overall it feels like were poised for a marketing reset, but the rules of engagement aren't entirely clear yet, and I'm curious about whether you think companies will continue to embrace and explore new or different marketing approaches or whether they'll snap back to the old normal. However you wanted to find normal. So the the ideas, all the things they've learned last year, all the things they did differently, will all that be tossed aside and they'll just go back to what feels comfortable? I think we'll see something like a bell curve on this one. I think that you'll see companies that that regrets, that go back to spending sixty or seventy percent on events, maybe because they weren't successful during this period of time on digital or content. Because you don't just snap your fingers and magically get good at producing constant that people like, understanding your customers deeply distributed on the Internet, building an audience, understanding how to run media against it like you don't. You don't just figure those things out immediately, and so I imagine that a lot of companies haven't truly been able to figure that out. I think that a lot of companies had probably ripped and replaced the intent of what a physical event is about and then just done that digitally. But boots at virtual trade shows run as many webinars as possible to get leads, like those types of things, and I think that there will be other companies that have learned a lot of different things during this time period and continue to progress forward. I think if I had to decide as an exact off which bucket I would want to be I would the real bucket I would have want have been in is...

...that I knew exactly what I needed to know before this happened so that I truly capitalized on this situation relative to competitors. But if I'm not in that bucket, then we need to be taking these learnings and continuing to progress forward. I think this could be look back on it as a dramatic shift. And how B TOB COMPANIES DO market? have been talking about it for a long time. BE TO BE COMPANIES TEND to run heavyly Gen model so that their sales team can do sales to people that don't want to buy, and I think that marketing should be a lot more focused on creating demand in the market so that outbound works more effectively. We hear that from plenty of our customers. After twelve months of executing that, hey are outbound opportunities have gone up by x and we didn't really change that much, you know what I mean, and so there's some element that just people. More people know about you and then you're also driving more inbound demand or when buyers moving into bune cycles, they're going to come to you first, and so I think that that's what a majority of companies, if not all, should be transitioning to over this time and this this period of twelve, fourteen months or whatever we've been in this for, I think should have been the catalyst for this change. It's interesting that you mentioned virtual conferences. Coming cousin some respects it felt like trying to fed a square peg into a round hole. That they really wanted to conferences because it's what they know. So a lot of companies and the conferences needed to make money right. Conferences don't have their don't have their events, they go out of business. I know we're going to different at here, but what it's interesting that you mentioned that because you know, when I look at conference is typical be to be conference has. A lot of the speakers are sponsors who paid to get on stage. You know, the programming in general is probably anybody in the audience, because probably get on stage and speak because we're all pretty smart people. We all have insight, and I think the real opportunity for conferences is becoming connection catalysts. Like I think one of the reasons why linkedin has been being such a powerful platform over the last year is it made it so easy to connect at scale, or relative...

...scale, and allowed people to given people permission to introduce themselves to people through connection. So the reason we're connected is through your content, me engaging with you and connecting, and I just honestly think that conferences need to focus on connections more than content, because that's where the real value is, in those in those spontaneous and interactions. Sure, let's talk about this instead from an opportunity, from a company standpoint, and so from a company standpoint you should be trying to create a content strategy that's better than the conference that happens all year round, not just in three days that for only the people that are able to travel there, and so I've taken that mind. Sen since two thousand and seventeen when I've started to see that all the buyers were going there and I would pay attention to who was speaking and whether or not they were credible and what people thought about their presentations and different things like that, and then I would bring them on our own channels right with the in pension of producing a media entity that produces content that our buyers want to listen to more than the conference. I think that's a great North Star for companies. It's a massive opportunity. I don't know why that, given we're in two thousand and twenty one and we see the middleman getting squeezed out in every other industry like taxi cabs and with Amazon and a lot of different plate real estate. There's ton of places like that. But we still want to go through a conference to engage with our buyer when we can do it on our own, and so I'm just really challenging people to think about that component. Like the benefit of a conference like you mentioned, is that a lot of people are physically there, and so when I think about that, I think about the idea of being able to create content with the six best experts in the world because they're all there and that's the only time that they're together once a year. Right. I think about the idea of being able to do a ton of market research that you would most companies would never create a budget for somebody to go out and go to twenty, twenty different customers and do that research...

...on their own. We used to do product research. We would buy sweet and have people come up and give feedback on our future products that we're developing, pricing strategies, different thing, pricing tolerances, different things like that. And then another opportunity for marketers is to actually go follow your target buyer around, depend on what the conferences and see which set sessions they go to, who they listen to, what they think about it, and then try and compare what you think about it. And so I think that there's a lot out there's a lot else outside of the booth that is the most value in a conference and I would, from a sales standpoint, I would scrap the booth and I would set up your set up your meetings in advance and do it over dinner, at a coffee shop, at an event or different things like that, and redeploy that cash elsewhere. So it's an entirely new mindset where a new approach to conferences rather than sort of the same standard. I'm going to sponsor, I'm going to attend, you know, and the conference isn't going the conference isn't going away because you didn't buy a booth there right a bunch of other companies are going to waste their money on it, and so but you can be the smart one that spend the the definition, not necessary the definition, but the goal of marketing is to create the most impact for the least amount of dollars, and so one of the way and one of the ways that you can do that is you can scrutinize big expenses, and we just mentioned sixty to seventy percent. I've done I've literally done this for five years, going to company, seeing their trade to expense, matching it against actual sales data and and calculating the Roy showing that two executives presenting them with a different idea that's going to work better, that's already been proven in a pilot and then start moving money somewhere else. Speaking of moving money, I want to ask you about the structure of B Tob Marketing teams, given that a lot of tactical execution has been outsourced to consultants, agencies, freelancers and contractors. Do you think that BB companies will staff up again, or do you think lean and mean is the way to go and that marketing teams will be more strategic? They'll have some key tactical assets and house but...

...a lot of those activities can be done more efficiently if they're done by a third party. Agree or disagree. It's interesting because I'm not seeing the same trend. So maybe we're maybe we're looking at two different segments in the market. I think that companies are trying to take more in house. If I was the CMO or the CEO of a five hundred persons ask company, my objective long term would be to do almost everything in house and I would insert external partners and consultants for innovation and frameworks and different things like that that my team can move on and implement. Now, when we think about the thing that can't be outsource, I mentioned this a couple times, I really want to hammer at home. The thing that you cannot outsource is the customer intimacy, deep understanding of your customer and I and so if you, if you prioritize that I don't see. I actually don't see companies prioritize out enough. I interact with you know hundreds a month. It's like that is the number one thing that you are not able to outsource. Their outsourcing, all these different things, Seo, but a little ball. But you got to spend the time really understand your customers because it drives your strategy. Old I believe that you could theoretically outsource everything else except for that. Not that I would recommend it, but that's I think the component of the company should really focus on. But what's interesting when you read a lot of linkedin posts, and this may be marketers talking to marketers, is the idea of knowing your customers, and there's post after post about customer insight and really understanding their needs. And interesting to me that's marketing one on one. Like you should be intimate with your gustomers, as you say, but our marketers not doing that. Are they simply sort of operating theoretically or making educated guesses, when in fact they should be sitting beside sales and on sales calls and on sales meetings and things like that? I think there's a difference between what someone perceives as understanding a customer versus what it actually is, and so the first step in that process is clearly defining who your customer is. I don't see a lot of...

...companies do that well eithern and so clearly defining who your customers forces you to make choices around who that is and look deeper than just company size and job title, and so that would be step one. And then once you've truly identified that, that target, then you can actually narrow in and you start getting into psychographics and think that do not play across that whole span of people, and so that's what I think people should really be focused on at this point. Community and content can help you attract those people easily, and so that's sort of an interesting and interesting framework to play by. You have written a lot about the, I don't know if it's the obsession or fascination with quantifying marketing performance, and you've emphasized that marketing success can happen in ways they can't be measured. So what's the healthy balance between quantitative and qualitative assessment when it comes to marketing? Yeah, I mean what's clarified? A couple of things. I one hundred percent believe that you should be able to quantify the impact of marketing inside of your company. I just think the way that it's done right now is not not smart, and so the way that I think that it should be done is the idea of how many people are coming to your website asking to buy and then and then buy, and how is that growing and how much expense is is facilitated in order to get people to do that relative to the revenue that gets returned? The reason that you focus on that point is because you win them at the highest rate. They have the shortest sale cycles, they have the lowest customer acquisition costs. It's going to help your sales team because they're getting deals that they don't need to go and hunt for, and so you want, over time, you want more of your overall revenue contribution coming through that flow for the reason that I just laid out, and so that's why I want marketers to focus there. And if you focus there, then you can think about how do I get all of it one if you focus on a singular funnel through your website, it breaks you free from needing legend channel attribution on every channel, which incentivizes marketers to not use the ones that are most effective today, and so that would be the initial part of the framework. Now the things that are difficult to quantify...

...are that we produced a piece of content, somebody liked it, they shared it with their friends, Susie, susie liked it and then nine months later Suzie's boss, Jane, comes in buy something, never going to you know, it would still get caught at the war measuring market on the way that they come in to buy. So like if you change your measurement model, you would still a tribute that in the right way in my view, but you're not going to know that clear path. And I think the thing that's suboptimal or just frankly not smart is the companies think that they can measure that and they can't, and so they give credit to things that don't don't necessarily make the most impact. Another thing that you'd not be able to measure is one that I mentioned before, which is the idea that because you've executed marketing really well, that your sales output actually works a lot better. But that's incredibly difficult to quantify because there's too many variables changing and there's no real tracking around that, and so that's another thing that I would consider difficult to measure. But the increasing outbound effectiveness, the long term position of your brand that gives you a competitive advantage, those are all things that are upside. I'm saying if you just measured the marketing impact against website sourced revenue relative to spend, that that makes sense on its own, and then you're getting all these things that are difficult to measure as extras, right, and so I think people should should move to for the reasons that I wait out, mainly because executives cannot get off the fact of the Google ad words, two thousand and twelve mindset that you need to say somebody went here and they click their ad, they converted and they bought something like it just a linear model in this this case. And you know, for some transactional sales or product led sure, but for enterprise sales you're going to spend a lot of money and you're going to waste a lot of your sales teams time. And I guess the follow up questions that would be for marketers who buy into your approach to quantitative performance is how do you convince your CEO that that this is the way to go because a lot of CEOS, as you mentioned, it's causing effect.

If I do this, this should happen. But when that doesn't happen, then marketing bears the brunt of that by showing them the differences between the performance of those different marketing funnels, and it becomes very obvious. A going and do this probably on this with twenty five companies in the past twelve months, all of their lead Gen models when at point one percent with long sale cycles and they spend all of their advertising dollars on them. And then you have all these people that are coming through your website that are buying, that have not engaged with those ads, that are winning at seven percent, that have the shortest sales cycles out of all the different sources of revenue, that contribute eighty percent or more of marketing's revenue on that system alone, and so it would be much easier to start trying to build on that a much more productive, efficient engine, versus continuing to throw money at something that's terribly in efficient and actually has human resources downstream as drs or as the need to follow up with them, which is a huge hidden cost and an incredibly expensive asset. And, as you start to scale as if you're trying to grow revenue and you're working off of that really inefficient system, you're going to need more heat, more headcount than you actually need. You're going to need to spend way more advertising dollars and you actually need and over time the system will break. There are plenty of companies that are at sixty million. Are are that don't have great netret net revenue retention, that have too many sales and marketing people and have capped out their digit dial advertising spend to a point where there's dramatic diminishing returns. And who wants to get to a sixty million revenue and be in that situation? Having consumed a lot of your linkedin content and listen to your podcasts, stated demand, en you have thoughts on a wide variety of topics. So for fun, let's do a rapid fire segment on some of the different marketing activities and all mentioned. Could these channels and you can. You can fire off what you think. We talked to this a little bit about this before, but conferences. Will they come back? How will they come back? What are your thoughts on that? Over and companies are overinvested. Okay, that is this rapid fire for me to because I'll take a...

...quick answer. I'll go further. You tell me you can go a little further on that. Okay, yeah, I mean I think that they're going to come back from the conferences standpoint, the industry, conferences have no incentive to innovate. Zero. They can. Every year they continue to raise their prices and companies still continue to pay it, and so they have no incentive to do anything more than the exact same thing they keep doing. And the only way that you incentivised them to do more is company start challenging that model, and companies are not going to challenge that model at enough scale anytime soon for anyone to change. And so what I'm recommending is for one smart company to do something different as a point of challenging that drives dramatically more impact while still siphoning off all of the real value of a trade show, which is not the booth. And I think companies should try it. Facebook advertising still very impactful, but was dramatically more IM pactful in two thousand and eighteen linked in advertising, overpriced but catching up in terms of overall, overall engagement. Second thing I'll add not enough reach and so well, you see very large audiences when they build the data inside of Linkedin because everyone's profile matches your things. Go Book at how many people actually get delivered your ads and it's not a lot. And so if you are in a you know, I would I would say any type of velocity sale less than a hundred and twenty days sale cycle, you're going to really struggle to hit scale on Linkedin, which is why we supplement with facebook and instagram and other channels. A lot of companies only run linkedin and display and I think it's a huge mistake. Field marketing could use some updates to the activities that they do to drive the most impact. ABM misunderstood and from a strategy standpoint it makes perfect sense. At an execution level, companies really really suck at it. Something close to the hard podcasting incredibly underrated for the potential impact and incredibly under resourced by most companies...

...that do it in terms of WHO's the actual host of the podcast, how much time they're investing and different things like that, and companies just fail to see the dramatic impact that it can have. If they executed it well, they'd hundred pound girl in the room. Content Marketing, two stuck in Seo, two thousand and eleven. Okay. Email marketing effective but overrated by a lot of companies because of the fact that they can measure it. Public Relations requires a facelift on how it's done. I think a lot of companies still run the PR play from to, you know, two thousand and two, where they put a press release in the wire and hope somebody picks it up and in the future. The have mentioned this several times. I'm going to go into depth in a here. The actual model is to build owned PR channels that demonstrate expertise and create and command attention right, which then opens up earned opportunities, rather than hiring a PR firm paying them twenty five grand to send cold emails to try and get you on some show. We've been doing that exact strategy. I can talk you through exactly what happens. We have been executing on our own channels, maybe linked in and podcast we I was initially asked for free consulting calls and then to go on other people's podcast, which continues to grow. And now and then an article was written about my company and Forbes and now we're getting asked to speak at conferences that the other people that vendors will pay twenty thousand dollars for someone at their company speak. We get we get invited to do it for free, and companies are asking us to do keynotes for their team, which is content, marketing, business development ABM all in one. And so yeah, I think I think there's a huge opportunity in weveragine third party channels that have credibility. You could argue...

...that an influencer is a form of PR or PR is an influencer. You could argue both of those things back and forth, and so I think that I think that companies should really think about how they're executing there, because it's could be really impactful. Word of mouth the thing that drives the most buying decisions and be to be today and nobody in B tob actually recognizes it. And finally, positioning. I would say that it's something that's important that I think company spend a lot of time on, that they have a good positioning and then when it actually gets moved into quote unquote production or worth, somebody would actually read it, all of the teeth in it gets cut out because of bureaucracy. Great, great, awesome. Thank you for participating in that little bit of it. That was fun. I could I could do that for hours. Finally, there's a lot of talk about the value of personal branding. On linkedin or Linkedin. There's a lot of talk about personal branding and, personally, I think a lot of people overthink it. I think it comes down to being a good person, doing the right things, delivering value, all the things that are just make you a good person, both professionally and personally. As someone with a large personal brand, what's been your approach to personal brandy? Do you think about personal branding? No, I think about producing content that people like, which allows them to consider my company when they have a problem that we can solve, and so like. This is I don't consider a personal brand. I call consider it content marketing with effective distribution that drives a narrative for your company into the market in an effective way that people like and so everyone. Personal brand is not a new thing just because people have put a tag on it. Right like in one thousand nine hundred and eighty, there were people in Boston that were significantly more wellknown than other people in Boston. Those people had a reputation about being good at something. Maybe they were a good lawyer or maybe they were a good,...

...you know, CPA or whatever, and they got more business because more people knew about them and reckon recommended them. It's the same thing that's going on here. I do believe that a lot of people overthink it. Think it's about providing value. I think it's about talking about the things that you know that can help people. I think it's about building a community, listening to what people are saying as a feedback loop, but, you know, generally being helpful. Final question, and one of the final question what's it like to be regarded as a marketing thought leader? That's a bit of an awkward question, but I think I got to ask it. And how do you handle the demands on your time to do podcast speaking at advance and all the things that you do refine laps? Is it a tough balancing act these days? I think that it's interest steam and I'm grateful that people would call, you know, refer to me as that. It's interesting, though, because throughout the first five to seven years of my career, everyone thought that all of my marketing ideas were not smart and they didn't want me to do the things that I'm doing, like producing a podcast and different things like that. They got scrutinized heavily in the companies that I worked for, and so it's just and the interesting thing is that all of the things that I do right now and all the things that I say, I might be able to say them more clearly, but I would knew them all and I was saying them to the companies that I work for and trying to do those things in two thousand and seventeen right and so it was. It's nice now. And the reason that I was able to do that is that I took the leap to start a company because I couldn't find a company to work for that would actually let me do marketing the way that I wanted, and so I wanted to create an environment where I could be innovating and testing and doing a lot of cool stuff for a while of sophisticated companies, which is what we're doing right now. On my time side, this is not a matter of do you have enough time as an executive. The the there's two components. It's one are you committed to it? We're committed to it. is driving our narrative.

It's driving our business that three hundred, four hundred percent year over year growth and multiple years in a row, massive brand outcomes, big VC private equity relationships that would have that other people spend a bunch of time cold called and sending direct mail and never get a meeting. These big firms are coming to us because of the work that we're doing. So totally committed to to the the impact of it. The second part is building the infrastructure of a great team that can execute on things so that I can prioritize this. And so we have an incredibly talented and capable team, many people that are better at a lot of things in marketing than I am, and so I'm happy to put those people in a position where they can be really successful and have a lot of fun doing it. And so that's the way that we we work on it. But no, it's not. I don't consider it demanding. I consider it my aside from our people and then our customer success, it's my number one job. I guess I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to tell me what refined labs does for most people know you. They may not be aware of what you actually do behind the scenes or in front of the scenes, depending on how you look at it. So maybe I can quick snapshot on the the refined lap story. Yeah, so I I believe in the future that companies will start to try to move to what I call category winning demand marketing, which includes three components. It includes a brand component. That would include events, organic social community, burned PR influencer relationships, content, things like that. The second component would be demand, a one too many or one too few, based on company firmographic targeting through a paid distribution model across the Internet that informs buyers, drives a ton of different content through guaranteed delivery using paid media. And then the third or would be an ABM pillar, which is one to one for significant deals. I thinking two hundred and fifty or five hundred thousand dollar deals or above. Only...

...that, you're targeting less than twenty accounts and each single account is getting specific campaign. So if you're creating a piece, if you're doing a campaign for an account, then you're going to send them a pot a podcast episode that you did were you broke down their strategy or provided something like that. I see almost no company execute that way because it's sales driven ABM, not marketing content driven ABM, and so I believe that companies will try and get to that outcome. And so that's what we believe. And so if companies believe in that, our job at refind labs is to help companies get there as quickly as possible. First by fixing demand, because it created it had creates the most short term impact possible in a one too many model. That allows you to create results and build competents internally. On what to do next would be the brand component. So advising on how do you build a podcast, how do you get organic social going? If you were going to do events in a different way than your sales events or conferences that you do right now? What would you do? If we were going to do influencer marketing, what would we do? We know how to do those things. And then the last thing would be ABM. Actually taking a lot of the operational infrastructure and content created from demand and brand and then rolling that into a one to one model in ABM. would be the third pillar. I think the companies at and then your chain. You're constantly switching out the different tactics and activities inside of those three buckets that are generated based on targeting, whether it's paid or organic, and your overall intent and where you're playing, and so you could change out tactics over time, but I think the companies should be playing in all three of those spaces. I think that a lot of companies listening, if they look deeply would would realize that they're not. I asked this of every gyats and I'm not sure if you need to tell people where to find you, but if people want to find out more about you and you're fine labs, where do they go? Yeah, so people love the state of demand Gen podcast. It's available on Apple, spotify and all the other places where I think crossing over fifteenzero subscribers. It's narrowly on on Bob demand...

...demand market. I guess we talked about Brandon ABM as well. Category winning demand marketing we cover on that show. So that's a great place to find us you're looking for a lot depth. And then if you're looking for more micro stuff, then you can follow Chris Walker and went in. I published daily there as well well. Chris, thanks for all the right insight and thanks everybody for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review and subscribed by Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP. If you'd like to learn more about how I help p TOB SASS companies as a fractional cmost to g Jack, advisor and coach, send an email to mark at Marquet Sparkedco I'll talk to you next time.

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