Diving in the Fascination with Personal Brand Branding - DP Knudten

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When did building a personal brand become so important?

Does everyone need a personal brand?

DP Knudten has some great insight into why a personal brand is a key part of how to operate professionally and personally.

He looks at the keys to success and the mistakes made by people along the way. 

As well, DP talks about his Non-Fiction Brand approach to personal branding.

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you'relistening to marketing spark. When did a personal brand become so important? Whydoes it matter and how do you build a personal brand? For entrepreneurs lookingto break through and break out, strong personal brand as it must have,but building a personal brand requires a combination of hard work, creativity, energyand strategy, and it can't be built overnight. Amid the see of peopletalking about personal branding, DP CANOTON stands out. His nonfiction brand philosophy helpsentrepreneurs discover and communicate the completely true and completely you brand. Welcome to marketingspark. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Mark. Solet's start with a softball question because it's an obvious question that I need toask and it's probably one with a multifaceted answer. What's your definition of personalbranding? No, it's a really good question because so, so many peoplethat are talking about personal branding are not talking about personal branding. They're talkingabout becoming an instagram influencer or having brands come to me and where their clothingand that gets my fans and all that stuff to buy the stuff. influencersare a subset of personal brands, but personal branding is much, much bigger, and I only refer back to the very first time I ever heard thatphrase personal branding or personal brands, and that is in Tom Peters one thousandnine hundred and ninety seven article in Fast Company magazine called the brand called you. I mean literally go to fast companycom, search for the brand called you andread that article, because that is the that is the Rosetta stone ofpersonal branding and it's not about being an influencer, it's not about wearing abikini and having your wind blowing in the in the air on a beach inbilize. It's not any of that stuff. It comes down to what Tom Thoughtwas the benefit of packaging yourself and using the same techniques that have beentime tested improven of consumer packaged goods, meaning you don't for example, let'stake a consumer package goods good that everybody knows wed he's the breakfast cereal right. It is a wheat flake of some sort. I don't know how it'smade, I don't know what it is, but I do know this weed's isthe breakfast of champions. It comes in an orange box that I cansee from across an entire supermarket and if I'm in the market to buy weedhe's, I look for that, I grab it and I go because inmy mind, Weedie's are going to make me perform better. Why? Becausethey have created a brand that's all based on that concept, which is we'renot some sweet candy like corn flake or wheat flake. We are a performance, serious, adult oriented wheat flake. I'm talking about wheat flakes here.We're talking commodities, and yet this commodity is an incredibly high performing brand.So Tom Peters basically stipulated that everything we these did you need to do foryourself. You need to package yourself, and I saw that article. Istill remember where I was when I read that article in one thousand nine hundredand ninety seven, and I've been thinking about it ever since and finally I'vecome up with my take on it and put it into a book, whichyou mentioned, nonfiction brand. Discover, craft and communicate the completely true,completely you brand you already are, which is kind of my marketing way ofsaying, do you see how packaged book title is? That enables you markto introduce me in a way that gets people going, Huh, what's hegot to say? Because that's kind of interesting. And, by the way, nonfiction brand that implies that there is...

...such a thing as fictional branding.Is there? Why? Yes, there is. See how a conversation hasstarted, all based on the fact that I packaged my philosophy, gave ita title that's very similar to wheat he's or fruit loops and then made ita product that people want to know more about and consequently me. So personalbranding is about packaging who you are, what you do and how you doit in a way that other people can understand it, prefer it, shareit, evangelize become your unpaid sales force, because they know exactly how to introduceyou based on who you are, what you do and how you doit. Right. It sounds like a lot of the work that I dowith BDB SASS companies when it comes to positioning and messaging. Yes, samefun basics. Right, we're establishing a personal brand, or corporate brand inthat case. So I can see, you know, the similarities and howhe would approach brand building, both on our personal perspective and corporately. Yeah, well, exactly. Okay, so both of US share a deep marketingbackground in I understand that you came from the journalism side of stuff and noware in the marketing space. I came from the theatrical side, if youwill, because my degrees in theater of all things, but I discovered thatI could write well and that people would pay me. Well. Does thatmake me a writer? Is That my personal brand? It influences my personalbrand, but it's not at the core of who I am. Like ifI get down to the first principal DNA level of who I am, thefirst word I'm going to throw out there is creative. I always have tobe created, creative, whether I'm writing songs that no one listens to inmy basement studio or if I'm presenting to a client, I'm always creative,entertaining and fun. You know stuff like this, that creativity affects every singlething I do. Now, writing is a tool I used to express mycreativity and it also provides a handy, what I would call brandle, abrand handle for other people to understand. So if they say, Hey,that DP can Newton Guy, what's he do? While he's a writer andhe's pretty funny, or he's really touching, or he understood our difficult concept anddistilled it down into nuggets of truth that make it very easy, asvery easy for us to go to market. So again, you're talking about workingwith SASS companies. Right, software is a service. If you gotto convince me, because I've been buying boxed software for thirty years, tellme why I should buy spend fifteen dollars a month for your service. Andin my mind I'm doing the well, let's see, if I bought thatfor ninety dollars, that converts to how many months and all that stuff,and I'm if I'm doing that conversation, that calculation, you've lost me.But if you're talking about the benefits that I can get from your service assoftware, then we can have a conversation, because it if you're talking to meabout what I want, which are the benefits, not the features.We can talk about features on our third, fourth fifth date. But branding isabout getting that state and then beginning a conversation. That creates a relationshipand that relationship creates a lifetime of transactions. Right. I guess what fascinates meabout personal branding these days of that it seems to be everywhere. Ispent a lot of time on Linkedin and there is post after post about theimportance of personal branding how to do it. I do wonder why there's so muchfascination and personal branding, because I suspect it's been around for a longtime and people have had personal brands for, you know, hundreds of years.I mean Beethoven had a personal brand. But I am curious about why it'sbecome such a hot commodity. Is it a growth industry, so alot of people have gravitated to being Gurus...

...and consultants? Is it a resultof the volatile economic conditions in which we live, or is there something else? Well, I think it's a combination of all those things. You know, the idea, as I said earlier, Tom Peters kind of throw it outthere in one thousand nine hundred and ninety seven. It's had a lotof time to percolate through the culture. But a big thing that has happenedis, and I don't think a lot of people are consciously aware of this, but there is a fear of commoditization, meaning if I'm a writer, I'mone of many, if I'm not known for anything, I'm just awriter that's easily replaced for someone who's either cheaper, younger, faster, whateveryou perceive them to be, and I have less value to you, andyou know this from branding you have. Basically, in my world, inthe way I think there are two positions in the market, commodity or brand. Commodities are purchased for the lowest possible price, but brands command a premium. Now I all I have to do is is mentioned one company and you'llunderstand what I mean. Apple. I'm a huge appy of FISSIONADO and,by the way, I own apple stock, full disclosure, because I love thatcompany. I started out on computers with a green screen with an aprompt where I had to type in Park Dot exc to park the heads onmy hard drive I which I installed and it was a whopping ten twenty megabytehard drive. I have photos on my phone right now that are bigger thanthat entire tire hard drive capacities was. So I'm not afraid of tear andstuff apart. But I've reached the point in my life where I value theapple it just works. I value the apple user experience focus. I lovethe design esthetic that they create. I don't love everything they do, butthey are more aligned with what I choose to align with. Meanwhile, Iknow people my like my brother, happens to have more of an engineering mindset, and so he was all about what, why are you paying eight hundred dollarsfor a phone that has two hundred dollars where the components in it?And I said because it just works. It just works with my computers,which are all apple. It works with everything. It just works. Idon't have to go into a config dot cisfile ever again in my life right. So that's a value to me and, by the way, I, theconsumer, get to determine what is valuable. Right Apple has made itvery easy for me to select them by being very clear in what their brandis. And they are a premium commodity, in some cases a super premium commodity. My macbook pro, which cost twozero, is, if you're anengineer, the same as a Dell Laptop. That cause eight hundred dollars, towhich I say, Oh, Contrere Moan, for are they are notthe same thing at all. Why? For All the reasons I just listed? No, what you're saying is what you're saying is that that a personalbranding is important to even necessary if you are going to be if you wantto position yourself as more than just a lowcost commodity. Yeah, you youhave to, because I look. Obviously, if you're listening to this podcast,you don't know this, but I have this nice salt and peppery graybeard. I've been around this earth for quite a while and twice in mycareer I was hit with the what I like to call your x years.You're experienced, your expert, your expensive and therefore expendable, and anyone who'sreached a certain age knows that if you lose a client, you look atthe spreadsheet of how many people are getting paid what and you look for theguy at the top and say, we can have five of those for oneof him. Let's get rid of him. And that happened to me twice becauseI was in an anonymous commodity, not necessarily to the the people Iworked with directly, whether they were creatives in my creative group or with clients, but in general is it's easier to...

...get keep five of those lower costpeople than keep one. Right. And the other truism is if you don'town it, it's not yours. They can let you go. Any timefor any reason. And again when you reach a certain age, that's anotherex year's thing. It's like, you know what, advertising marketings a youngman's game and if you have not distinguished yourself in any way. My perceptionis that a twenty eight year old copywriter is as good or better than afifty five year old copywriter. Why? Because their commodities. If, however, I had personally branded myself throughout my career as an absolute expert in babysass companies and we had met and you knew who I was, what Ido and how I do it, I would have a career as long asI wanted it to go and I can do things like I'm doing now,which is speaking at conferences and stuff like that, because people seek out theexperts in those x years, you know, and I like to call these yearsalso the Yoda years. Yoda was a lightsaber swing and Jedi for alot of years until he decided, you know what, I'm going to spendthe rest of my life in my comfy little swamp on Dagabar, and youall, you Luke skywalkers out there, you come to me when you wantto learn really how to do this I can do that now because I havebeen actively personally branding myself for the past, I would say seven years, sevento ten years. I guess the question, and this is a bitof a provocative question, because you spend a lot of time helping clients developtheir own personal brands. But is a personal brand necessary in today's modern businessworld? I mean, what if you're Super Smart Entrepreneur, you're not aJeff besos or an Adam Newman or any of those high flying entrepreneurs and youwant to you like to operate in the in the shadows, because you're focusedon the business, you're focused on doing the best job possible and you don'tcare about a personal brand. You don't care about being on stage, youdon't care about media coverage, you just want to do the job. Arethose type of entrepreneurs making a mistake, and are people in general who don'tbuild a personal brand make a mistake? The quick answer to your question isconsider your audience, and I don't mean a wide, vast broadcast audience.Every single person on this earth has a niche audience that they want to besomebody to or within, you know, a community. So let's take thesmallest kind of communities possible or the most I like to use this example justbecause it's so extreme, but it really illustrates to the concept. There issomebody, and I don't know who they are, so don't ask me thatquestion, but I am sure there is someone on the face of this earththat is the absolute, one hundred percent recognized expert on civil war buttons andthey know what Button was warned by what unit at what Battle and Oh,you know, your your reenactment uniform is in incorrect because you've got the wrongbuttons and stuff like that. And I just know that in that very smallagain picture this ven diagram the entire world. There's a tiny little circle in thereabout people who give a crap about civil war buttons. But there isone person who is notable and owns the expert levelness of that small niche.You don't have to be hanging with Kardashians, you don't have to be going upon blue origin with Jeff Bezos, you, but you do want tobe known within what you do as an...

...expert. How do you become anexpert? You could say this is everything about me. Seven I'm sharing whatI ate. You know I'm having a bad day to day. You cando all that stuff and you'd be falling into the influencers trap of everything Isay is important. It's not. If you are a personal brand, youhave to practice what I call selective authenticity, which is, if truth be told, I consider politics ape blood sport and it's my favorite type of sportingevent. So I follow politics very, very closely and deeply, and yetI maintain my let's call it, you can't really know for sure. Youprobably think I'm one party or one blue or red, whichever, but younever really know because I don't rub your face in it. Why? If, in in our culture right now, were I to go stridently one wayor the other, I would lose perhaps forty five percent of my potential salesor engagement audience right. So I selectively am authentic by sharing that which Icare to share. That is a lustrative of my core concepts, which Ilike to call the key three. My key three, three words, concepts, are phrases that some you up. My key three are creative. Wealready talked about that. Collaborative. I work with other people, even whenI'm working alone. I have to work with you to get the input,to listen deeply to, then go away and do my writer stuff and thenI come back and collaborate with you again to calibrate that and make it great. And I've realized early on I'm not a poet that exists up in agarret writing their own vision on paper. I have to work with other people. So collaboration is deeply part of who I am and what I do write. The third word, and this was hard for me to understand until Italk to enough trusted individuals and they said, you know what, people don't alwayslike what you have to say, but you always make them think,and I went that's my value and that's true. So, taking that valueand coming up with the word that best fits it, the word is provocative. So creative, collaborative, provocative. I have got to provoke. Youknow, I don't go out of my way to slap you in the faceand call you an idiot to provoke you, but I do try to bring youconcepts that make you think and say, Oh, we could never do that, oh no, we could wait a minute, we could. Maybewe could do that. Because as a creative collaborator, I only bring youvalue when I give you something you couldn't do yourself. We'll get into yourphilosophy and approach when it comes to personal branding, but I did want toask you about some of the mistakes that will make when they're trying to builda personal brand, because there's no lack of advice and guidance out there andthere's this feeling that I need to build a personal brand if I don't wantto be a commodity. I need to stand out somehow. But what doyou see in terms of how people person bill personal brands and you go,man, I wish they hadn't done that. Well, I can point to somebodythat I think everybody probably is aware of, and that's Gary Vaner Chuck. You know, and I call it, I think of it as Gary vSyndrome. I love Gary Vaner Chuck for who he is, not allthe time, because he's a he's he's pretty spicy a lot and he's alittle bit too spicy for my taste a lot of the time, but Ilove the fact that he is, I think, absolutely authentically Gary Vander Chuckand I followed him all the way since his first wine library video on Youtube. In how I want to say, like two thousand and six, maybetwo thousand and five, something like that, and I've watched him grow huge,you know, he drops fbombs. He's in his S, I thinknow, but he's still dresses like he's...

...a skater boy, you know,all this stuff, and to me, yeah, that's Gary V. He'sbeing authentic. The big mistake, to answer your question, the big mistakeis especially a lot of young males. They think they've got to ape GaryV's style, you know, or and they like the fact that he candrop f bombs. You know, I want to be that kind of inyour face, F bomb drop in Guy. And and so what they do isthey get in front of a Lamborghini that has fat stacks of cash onit and they and they stopped, start posting stuff like ten ways to getto a hundred or six figure income fast, you know, and they all dothe same stuff. They are parroting. They are literally a parody of whatGary Vaner Chuck does so well, and again I want to stress this, I think Gary Vaner Chuck is one hundred percent completely true to who heis as a person and he dials it up volume wise, but it's stillthe same song. You know, it's like ACDC is still loud, evenif at very low levels, but the second you amplify it it gets,you know, ear bleedingly loud. Gary Vander Chuck can do that. Buthe's also starting to show a little bit more selective authenticity, because he wasthe insurgent leader up in the hills with guerrilla fighters. Now with Vaner mediaand all the other stuff he's doing, he's kind of mainstream. So he'sstarting and if you've ever seen him, I saw him once on the SteveHarvey Show when that was on Steve Harvey, the Great Comedian, and there hemeets Gary Vaner Chuck for the very first time on that episode and GaryVaner Chuck was, let's call it, if he's normally at eleven, hewas at three, you know, in terms of volume, and I'm like, who is this guy? That's gonna not Gary Vander Chuck. And yethe his volume, or what I would say the song he was singing,was so fresh in exciting to Steve Harvey that at the end of the interviewhe just turned to him very honestly and said, I think you and Ihave got to do some work together right and you know that here's Steve Harvey, this big you know, he's got a universe of entertainment that go that'sgoing on, and one interview with someone who is completely true to themselves whatthey do and how they do it gets the attention to this guy and getthem to the point where they say, let's figure out something to collaborate on. So I think what you're saying is be true to yourself. Yeah,present yourself sort of what you see is what you get, John. Tryto posture, to position yourself in a way that you think the world shouldsee you. But operate the way that you operate and people will either rallyaround you and your brand or not. But that's okay because at least you'llbe distinct in the marketplace. Well, for example, mark, I'm lookingat your website, the about page. It says about marketing leadership for beTOB SASS companies. You know what that doesn't say? Fast fashion. Youknow what it doesn't say of quick serve restaurant. So you know what itdoesn't say? Petroleum stations, cigarettes, tobacco, you know any of thatstuff. It's very clear that you are not for for ninety percent, maybeninety five, maybe ninety eight percent of the things that are sold on thisearth you don't want to touch. Why is that? Because I'm guessing andI'm just meeting you for the first time, but based on the personal brand you'vepresented to me, here's what I'm getting from the personal brand you're presenting. You're a deeper, more thoughtful individual. You've got a background in journalism,which gives you a reporter's nose for news. And, by the way, in the case of marketing, a...

...reporter's nose for news means that you'vegot a nose for the most important things. Not every fact, but the mostimportant ones, because, again, this is so much of what wedo. I often refer to it as dating. So much of what wedo is merely a first date, which is what's the goal of a firstdate? To get a second I thin tat right, you know, andthe first date is a nice smile and I contact from across the room.That gets you across the room and say hi, what's your name? You'vedone that to just about any BEAB SASS company out there who may have lookedyou up on Google. Now I don't know what else you're doing when itcomes to social media or or how you're extending your personal brand. But let'ssay that you do a periodic post on Linkedin. Why? FACEBOOK has notime for you and you have no time for it. I'm guessing, however, Linkedin, where people do business, is a good place for you,not necessarily to go hard on sales, but maybe a little bit of thoughtleadership, maybe a little bit of curation of Hey, did you guys seethis great article? Did you see this wonderful Ted Talk? That relates tosomething that's going on. Whatever you are demonstrating, and that's the key thing, the word demonstration. You're not just telling people, you're demonstrating who youare, what you do and how you do it, by what you do, how you do it and and all that stuff. But I didn't.I don't want to talk about me and personal brandy, but but there wasa post on linkedin recently about consciously building a personal brand versus subconsciously. Inmy own case, I don't think I say to myself every single day Igot to work on building my personal brand, I gotta do something that will makewill hands it or make it or amplify it. I just do whatI do. I have a focus which is marketing for bbsass companies. I'mactive on Linkedin, twitter, I have a podcast and I just do mything because I'm passionate about it, I'm interested in and I'm curious in it. I am wondering whether that just the way that good personal branding works,as you're not thinking about it, you're just living it every day. Well, it is, but I also I also think that it doesn't hurt tosay that, you know what, I'm going to do something just to maybefifteen minutes a day to focus on my personal brand in one way or another, the same way that people go to the gym. Because, let's faceit, you don't have to go to the gym if you eat well andyou walk your dog and you go on the occasional bike ride. But ifyou want to perform at a higher level, you're going to go to a gymand you're going to work out, and anyone who's ever going to thegym, the first day, you know is a very hard day. Thenext day gets a little better. The third day you're doing better and you'relifting heavier weights, you're doing more cardio, you're doing whatever you do right.It gets easier when you do it every day. So all I'm suggestingis is that you go to the gym every day for even a little bitof time. Because here's the reality of it. And when I go tothe gym, the hardest thing about going to the gym is just getting inthe car and driving to the gym right once I'm there and I walk inand I say I'm only going to do fifteen minutes, I'll end up doingan hour and a half. Why? Because I'm feeling better the the entiretime I'm doing it. And you know, there are some days where the bestI can do is just drive the car to the gym, walk in, say hi to the front desk and then turn around and walk out,but at least I made the effort. So and mark, you're doing allthe right stuff. The you know, the the king of content when itcomes to personal branding, I think, is a podcast because right it putsyour ears or your ideas and your voice and your presence in your personality inpeople's heads. Literally. It's and it...

...we can talk for days about whypodcasting is a an incredible unlock for personal branding. But you know, Iagree with what you said. I I think the key thing is that youmake it a little bit more conscious. For that you can say I onlyhave fifteen minutes before the next phone call. Well, guess what, fifteen minutes. That's enough time to go to Linkedin, look at the key peopleI want to connect with, see that they have a nice post, reactto it and, by the way, they're I have a whole technique onI call comment marketing, how to use comments to build your personal brand,and I do want to share this with your listeners. If they're interested,they can go on nonfiction brandcom gift to download three PDFs that can get youstarted on your nonfiction brand personal branding journey. And but if you have that fifteenminutes, it could be wasting time looking at tick tock or whatever,or it could be going to Linkedin, finding marks comment that he put orpost, commenting on it, beginning a conversation with mark so that at ultimatelyyou build a relationship. Right becomes a conscious thing you do the same waygoing to the gym is about consciously being in better shape, healthier, youknow, extending your law, your youth whatever. So we're half hour intoour conversation and we even haven't even talked about your nonfiction brand philosophy towards,or approach or methodology towards personal branding. So let's get into that. Howdoes it work? How did you develop it? How is it different providingme with the nitty gritty of your approach to personal branding versus all the otherpeople who are focused on personal branding these days? Okay, well, thefirst thing is anyone is doing branding right is doing the same stuff. Thereis no Secrett sauce, there is just expert practice and disciplined to practice.So when I say nonfiction brand, let me tell you the very quickly,the story about that. I was a young copywriter at Mecan Ericson in Atlanta, Georgia, working on Cocacola. I would always have my butt handed tome when I would go present concepts and they'd beat me up on three wordsauthenticity, refreshment and sociability. That's the key three of Koke, or itwas when I worked on them. Everything had to communicate authenticity, refreshment andsociability. What does that mean? I could spend two hours talking about that, so I'm going to skip that to except to go on to say oneday I got a creative brief that said write some stuff. And again,a creative brief is you got to tell the writer what you're writing, likea TV spot and outdoor board, a brochure, Web page? What arewe doing? It's a web page. What do you want to say?Two for one this week only. Okay, supplies are limited. These are copypoints. I need copy points. Why? When I got that creativebrief that said write some stuff, I walked into the account manager's office andI said, Dude, what is this? I'm not a fiction writer, andwhat I was trying to say to him was I can't make up stuff. I you at least have to tell me that it's a fourth of Julyspestral or something. Give me something, Dude, you know, because I'mnot writing fiction. Well, we dealt with the situation, but I keptit in my mind. It kept going around in my head. I'm nota fiction writer, and that doesn't mean I can't ride fiction that no onewants to read, because I can, believe me. But I kept thinking, well, I'm not a fiction writer when it comes to advertising, amarketing why? I have to tell the truth. That doesn't mean I'm notafraid to buff things up to a high gloss, but there has to besome truth involved. For example, if I worked on a coke ad andsaid Coke helps you lose weight, that would be a lie you, abig fat lie. But if I wrote an ad that said Coke remant willremind you of weekends with your Grandpa,...

I would go yeah, that's true, because I would always go to GRANDPA's house and you would have Cocacola,which was and he would sneak it to me because my parents didn't let medrink, you know us sugarase sodas and stuff like that. And all ofa sudden I realized, oh, coke was about authenticity and refreshment and sociability, those three key three words. Because their competitor made the same product,commodity, Sweet Brown, bubbly water, Pepsi Coke. Are they that different? Yes, if you're a coke of Facionado or a Pepsi Aficionado, ifyou've ever been to a restaurant and have the server come up and say,Oh, I'm sorry, we don't have coke here, we only serve Pepsiproducts, you know exactly what that coke lover feels like when they say oh, I'll just have water. Right. If I can't have Cocacola, II just won't water. That's when I realized the power of a brand.And so the nonfiction part of it was that, oh, this is notabout making something up, it's about taking the truth and enhancing it authenticity.Cocacola one thousand eight hundred and eighty six. It went nationwide a year later.Pepsi did guess what they're. Coke's the real thing because they were thefirst. They were always the real thing, and we could go into a longdiscussion about new coke in that mistake. But what that was was the marketplace telling Coke No, you can't mess with grandma. Grandma is spicy, she's a little bit acidic, but we love grandma and you don't messwith grandma. And if you were old enough to remember the new coke,tobaccle, you know that coke messed with grandma and the market place forced CocaCola to be true to who they are, what they do and how they doit. They literally they and that's a key thing for people understand stand. When you're doing branding right, you own your brand and they do too, and by they I mean the people who work for you, the peoplewho buy from you, the people who recommend you, the people who arewho constantly look to you to be exactly who you are. The nonfiction partgoes into the what I would call the deep consideration of who you are,what you do and how you do it. Like I said earlier, I'm awriter, but that's a tool. I can also design, maybe notthat well, but I'm a I could be a designer. I'M A badvideo editor, I edit my own podcast. So I do all these things andthe common denominator of all of them is creativity. You know, Idon't follow recipes. I create literally, show me a basket full of fruitsand vegetables and protein and I'll make a dinner and it may not be great, but it's creative. A gain to that much. So we don't clients. It's all about finding their true selves or authentic cells, and then packagingthat in a way that's believable and authentic, yes, and making sure that theyadhere to it because, and I don't mean to pick on people,but I try to to give examples that people can relate to. Okay,you went to high school, you had a friend who's a female and youare close friends, but you're always in the friend zone and never crossed overinto romantic or whatever. You don't see each other for ten years, fifteenyears, you go to a high school reunion and then you see that friendwho now as a totally different hair color, totally different body shape that has beensurgically enhanced. And invariably, and this happens, it doesn't matter whatgender you are or anything like that. But literally, in your mind,if you don't say it to them directly, you'd be going that's not the JennyI know. That's not Jenny. I have a friend WHO's male whoI, you know, grew up with.

Ends Up. He's had some legalproblems and stuff like that, and my response to that is that's notthe guy I know. That's not the truth of who he is. He'stried to be someone else. He's putting on brand, I like to sayit. Put it this way. A brand is not a pair of shoesyou tie on your feet. It's who you are. And when I showa presentation I'll show a Nike ad of the Nike shoes on the runner andthen I show the runner the Nike shoes don't make the runner a runner.The Nike shoes make the runner get out there and just do it, whateverthat is. In the case of elite athletes it's just do it and winor just do it and perform. The goal is to identify yourself as arunner, not as a pair of shoes that you just tie on your feetand ideally that runner is actually going. You know what, I'm not justa runner, I am an athlete. And what does that mean? Anathlete has an entire sensibility that is different than that of a salesperson, thatis different than that of a musician. An athlete is understands that things areconstantly a opportunity to win. So the question is, are you performing atthe highest possible level to be that type of winner? You know and againthat this is just kind of what I would call hack psychology. If,all of a sudden you say, you know what, I'm an athlete eventhough I am a salesperson, what does that mean? Oh, maybe asan athletics oriented salesperson, I need to be more prepared so I can performat a higher level, that I need to practice as much as I actuallyperform. You know, the the old Vince lambar already line about there's nopractice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. If you're someone like that, that will, that quote will resonate with you and and once you understandthat, you're not trying to be Gary Vaneer Chuck, you're not trying tobe Kim Kardashi and you're not trying to be whatever Berne Brown I mean.Think about that. Berne Brown works at the University of Houston, which Ilike to a little bit snidly call the great place to be if you're inthe witness protection program, as a as a academic, and yet she's thatpersonal brand has enhanced the value of the entire university and that's the goal.That personal brand is now to be treasured by the university. She's no longera cog, she is irreplaceable. She's one of one. That's the goal, not to be one of many, but one of one. And theonly one of one you can truly be is yourself. So have you donethe work to figure out the first principle, key three ideas of who you are, what you do and how you do it? That, I think, is a great way to wrap out this conversation and thank you for allthe great insight on personal branding, which is a complex and fascinating topic.One final question. Where can people learn more about you and what you do? Well, you there a couple places, but the easiest one to get too, because you don't have to spell my last name, is nonfiction brandcomand if you go to non fiction brandcom gift you can download those three PDFs. You don't even have to give me your email address. I'm really badat click funnel marketing and stuff like that. So if you want to sign upon my emailing list, please do. I won't send you anything, probably, but it's nice to make that connection. And the other thing isI've got a podcast, the nonfiction brand podcast, new episodes every single Monday. Check that out, where we get fine podcasts for free, and alsothe books available on Amazoncom. Just look for non fiction brand and Kn youdten, which is my last name, but you should be able to findit nonfiction brand in the book section.

Well, thanks for listening to anotherepisode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, give it a fivestar review, of course, and subscribe by Apple, podcast, spotify orfavorite podcast APP to learn more about how I help bb Sass companies as afractional CMO, streachic, advisor and coach. Send an email to mark at marketingsparkcom or connect with me on Linkedin. I'll talk to you next time.

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