Who gives a crap about email marketing: Jules Dan


The “unsubscribe” notification is painful.

Someone wants to end a relationship.

They want you out of their lives.

It’s not them, it’s you…and your newsletter.

But is the unsubscribe really that bad?

Should marketers, in fact, celebrate unsubscribes?

When you step back, someone disconnecting from a newsletter means they’re not your target audience.

The effort invested to create a newsletter isn’t resonating with them. 

So, it’s perfectly fine for both sides to move on.

On the Marketing Side podcast, Jules Dan said it’s more important to focus on the people who want your email marketing. 

“I sometimes encourage people to unsubscribe.”

It's Mark Evans and you're listening to marketing spark. Email marketing is alive, well and thriving. Eighty nine percent of marketers use email as a primary channel for Januating leads. The fifty nine percent of B tob marketer for for email. For Lee generation as well, email marketing generates forty two of oury for every dollar span. Today I'm talking to Jules Dan, an email copywriter who helps coaches and consultants convert more leads into customers. Welcome to marketing spark. Mark, it's a pleasure to be on the show and thanks to having me on. Have you had an ally before in the show? You are the second one I've actually had on the show, and that the second marketer, so you don't get that honor, but it's very exciting to have someone way across the world the on the podcast. This is a global podcast, by the way, so you know I try to reach out to all continent and obvious first question, amid the vast digital buffet of marketing channels, why is email so powerful? Why does it work so well and, as important, what's behind the stain power? I mean, every time you say or think that email is going to disappear because of slack or text messaging or another medium. It keeps ongoing. Yeah, provide an next one nation about why email is still around and still the marketing channel off for many companies. Of course, I've got a little story to illustrate this point and it's really did in my heart, because when I first started this game I was doing a lot of facebook ads and chat bots at the time, so bots, and everyone knows how at the time, in two thousand and eighteen, if you were dabbling and chat bots, how facebook would just change the rules all the time, and I remember I created this brilliant campaign where it just sucked out leads for this client and then overnight my whole chatbot sequence I'd spent twenty thirty hours building, was flagged as breaching the terms of service. There was a critical sort of step that I couldn't do anymore and it was just all gone, and I realized at that point I had no control over that media and I don't think that's a really good spot to be in, especially if you're being a freelance like myself. I don't want to be walking on eggshells all the time when I'm trying to work with clients and that's when I swapped to focusing on email, because you own it. You own it. There are a few rules you have to go around. Obviously you can't spand stuff, but for the most part you own the asset. It's it's not regulated as hard as facebook and it's super easy to just send out emails to customers just to follow up with them to when they give you the email address. It's easy to break down objections. It's it's one of my favorite medias. I know you had a few different questions there. What was what was the second part? Do you question they mark? Well, I'm just wondering why email has stained power. Every time you think that we're at the end of email or email is going to lose a effectness or that marketers aren't going to use emails, often it keeps on going. Can you explain that? It has something to do with I don't know why, but everyone just loves checking the emails. Something to do with just like I've got this notification off to open it and I don't know what the statistics are, but it's if you check out hub spot, it's something crazy. So many people check the email. So the fact that they're checking it and then we're able to at least deliver a message to that', to that medium, to that media. I think it's really powerful. Well, I remember when the blackberry first came out and they the idea of mobile email was this amazing thing. It started this whole craze about people staring down at their devices all the time because the ability to get email on the road was astounding. And now we check at wherever and whenever. I guess it's a it's an addiction for many people. Over the last year when we haven't been able to go to a conference, isn't it? We haven't been able to see people in person, although in Australia the situation...

...is completely different. Things seem to be pretty open down there. Email, along with content marketing, have spend leverage by marketers to the NTH. I suspect that most people's inboxes are overflowing with email. And the question to you, as a mid this tsunami of email and the fact that we're all leveraging it so enthusiastically, what are the keys to email marketing success? I realize that is a load of question and there's lots of ways you can go here but what are best practices to breaking through when someone opens their inbox and there's dozens of emails waiting for them? So the whole point it's like go back to that no, like trust factor and setting these stage and the gender early on. So when someone optins option for you free be you want to be getting them to consume you free, because that's I know it's really hard to do, because not when people ever do that, but you know, in that first email you want to get them to consume it. So having that link at the top and then you want to give you some setting some expectations, like I'm going to be emailing you a few times a week. Something that I like to do with my clients is that over the next few days you're going to hear some stories about pain, point pay and point pain and point stuff that really did that mark market and in the PS I'll be like to help you cut through the clutter. Look out for jd as like a prefix, and that's and that way you know it's a real email from me. Those is just some things I like to do to set the stage really early on and do not do what a lot of people are linkedin do, is where you add someone and then they automatically add them to your email list. That's one of the worst things you could do. Yeah, it's a good segue into my next question, which is really about email marketing mistakes. And I think you and I see them every day when an email comes into the your inbox and you look at it and go, Oh my God, I can't believe the marketer actually did something like that. Can you highlight the things that email marketers shouldn't do? I must be some obvious things that set off red flags and almost cause you to respond to the marketer and say, Lesten, I gotta tell you something. That email you scent was just terrible and can I please help you do marketing better. What are some of those mistakes that you run into? Okay, so would you be interested in more and say like the copy or just sort of sending elements that land in the INBOX? Well, I think both. I mean I think there are mistakes that marketers make when it comes to best practices as far as deliverability, and there are mistakes that marketers make when it comes to content. So maybe you can touch upon both. Yeah, we will start on content first, because that's I think you're going to get the nail at first before we worry about deliverability. One of the huge beacon stakes I had when I first started writing email copy was that I had was just my attention was scattered everywhere. There wasn't an agenda, there wasn't one thing to focus on, and what happens is that people go on tangents a lot when I write emails. So either they'll tell a story or the want to promote what more than one thing, and people confused, people a dis distracted. So if you can keep the premise, but when you start writing email, I always ask the question, what's my objective? And that just makes it a lot clearer. So I don't go off on these side tangents and look as best you can keep it to one call to action and one link, because we could spend an hour talking about, you know, how do we structure a story? What's what are some persuasive tactics? But if you can just focus on one thing, one call to action, if you feel like you're going off on a tangent, reread it after you finished out loud and that always helps. That's that's a good starting point for the content for deliverability. I see this a lot mark and it's really simple things. But I asked to my clients, can you change this, and for some reason that I want to because it takes away from their branding. But you look at the top email marketers and they always in my inbox and it's because they've got a plane email. They don't...

...have social media buttons down the bottom that don't have a huge banner, they don't have a whole bunch of images and links going everywhere. It's a really clean email like it's just come from a friend. And that's just what I've noticed. And when I seen my emails out, generally they hit the real inbox. Sometimes they hit the Promo box, but those are my two tips for content and deliverability. As I mentioned earlier, bb marketers have been leveraging content marketing and email marketing over the past year. So one of the things that I'm interested in is getting some guidance or advice on how do you marry the two, how do you leverage the power of content marketing, which engages and educates and entertains, with the distribution power of email marketing? What are best practice is when it comes to getting those two things to work together. So when you saying distribution, like you want to sort of Edge K and give them some value, but you also want to sell some them as well. Is that we're asking not so much selling. But the idea is that marketers put a lot of time and effort into creating high quality content, obstensively high quality content. Allow you could argue that there's a lot of content that isn't high quality and they leverage social media, facebook linkedin twitter to get the word out. But email is still a great distribution vehicle to get content into people's hands. What are the best practices about using email for content marketing distribution to make sure that people see your email see the content you've actually produced? I guess we could use the same principle that I use for a lot of my seals emails, and that's excitement but not fulfillment, if that makes sense. You want to get people, you want to tase people, you want to get them hot and heavy and excited. A great way to do these using John Carlton's bullets, if you haven't checked that out. He taches how to right bullets. He's a really good copywritera and it just absolutely tases the crap out of someone who's interested in that content and man like. I see some long emails. If you just sending someone to a blog post or a video or something that that's a piece of content, it's just a tease. That email shouldn't be longer than say, a hundred fifty, two hundred and fifty words, maybe a little bit of a story how you discovered it, and then you let a bit of a cliffhanger on the end, and that cliffhanger is click the link. Maybe you could talk a little bit about bullets, like is that just simply using bullets to break up copy, to make it more accessible user friendly? Because when I see a while of tax in many cases it's the first thing that I think I was this is going to be a lot of work, this is going to take some effort and I don't want to work. I got so much to do, I've only got so much time. Does bullets sort of trick your mind into thinking that it's going to be an easy read? Well, I like to think so. The bullets as just supposed to be getting like, getting you really excited to click the link. If the one thing I always try and avoid in my bullets is learn the top five, because as soon as you say learn, it's like, oh, there's work involved and that's something I learned from my mentor. So if you can make like discover the hidden secrets, the secret tool to take away these little just action words and curiosity packed words, that might help. I wish I had some examples in front of me to tell your audience mark, but I'm does that answer your question? It does, it does, and I think it comes down to the idea that email, like anything, has to be user friendly, it has to be accessible and, like any form of digital marketing, it really can't involve a lot of work, because I always suggest that people are lazy and they don't want to work. They wanted to they want to be spoon fed in many cases. One of the topics that I wanted to touch upon is the idea of personalization. One of my clients, coherent path, helps retailers create what they call content diets. Customers receive emails that feature content that is relevant and interesting, not only encourages you to buy more of what you've already purchased, but explore...

...different categories. So I wanted to get your take on email marketing personalization, because a lot of marketers it's it's one and done, you blasted out to everybody, or maybe you create a few variations, but I'm not so sure that there's a lot of sophistication when it comes to email marketing. Any thoughts about that? When you say personalization, that goes down into segmentation. Is that? Is that what you're asking or exactly the idea that the email that I get is going to be different, maybe dramatically different, from the email you're going to get because you have different interest than I do, you buy different things or download different things than I do. Well, so I'll give you my experience. I know there was some people who'd be like vypay of marketing and they've got ten different segmentations because they've got a huge company that got lots of data. For me, I just work with clients who've got smallish list, one and a half to three thousand people. Usually what I recommend is to have a buyers list and a non buyers list, and the reason why we do that is if you want to test a little offer, it's better to test it to the buyers first then it is to I know it'll talk about content marketing before. Yeah, I've always found that when you want to test stuff, it's good to send it to the buyers. And that's a sophisticate as I get. I hope, but I don't. I know it didn't quite answer your question mark, but if you're going to have some kind of segmentation, you don't want to get overwhelmed. I would start there. I think, for small customers, for customers that haven't got extensive emails, that makes a lot of sense, because you don't want to slice in days a relatively small database. It probably causes more work than it's worth and you probably don't get the results that you expect. Yeah, but I do believe that people are expecting email to be more personalized, to be more relevant, to be more about what their interests are, and that if you're just doing one email for a vast audience, that's not going to work as simply want Reson. Can I count you on that, because the hard party is is showing up and some people are afraid to show up. I don't know why, but this is fear of sending out more than one email a week or God to feed God before forbid. Two emails per week. And if you can get to that stage. First, one or two emails a week short, like let's explore segmentation and how we can optimize the liberability. But think the habit of showing up. Your audience knows on this day. Mark sends an email on Tuesdays and Fridays. Then that's when you can get fancy with segmentations stuff. But if you want to talk about segmentations, probably not the right person to talk to. But if you will limit emails, that so let's ask about that. Okay. And it is interesting when you talk about multiple emails a week. Just from personal experience, for about four years I sent an email out featuring created content on Saturday mornings. I was quite proud of it. Look, I did all this reading, I'm sharing these creative links with you. The email did okay, but at some point in time I decided that it had run its course and I was talking with my business coach and he was saying, well, you should send out emails every day of the week, five days a week, and I thought, wow, that's going to be that's going to be a big challenge and I'm not so sure people want to hear me five days a week. And in the end we went back and forth a little bit and I settled on three days a week and much to my surprise, the reception has been really good. People are actually open to the idea of multiple emails for me, as long as the contents relevant, as long as it's interesting and, to earlier point, as long as it's not too long, because they don't mind reading short snippets from the same person, but if it's too much work they won't they won't open it and they won't read it exactly exactly. I'm on three days a week as well. I think it's a good amount and it all comes back to what you asked the start, like what's the best practices? And it's setting the agenda at this time. If you send anyone email the week and then you like hey, I been settled real sends out an email every single day, I'm going to do that too, probably going to get a lot of unsubscribed so setting the agenda, getting into the habit or if you are going to be sending more at emails, just let them know in advance.

That's a good practice. What brand stand out to you as email marketing champions? WHO's doing an amazing job with email now? Personally, I look at a company like grammarly that does email marketing really well. It's engaging, sometimes entertaining, interesting and prescriptive and along the way they're trying to upsell you. Two grammarly premium Jeffny champions are companies that you look to when your crafting emails that not only engage but sell as well. I have a few, quite a few personal brands. I have one like brand where there's no face behind it. Which one would you like to hear? Let's talk about well, give me a couple of examples. So sort of one publicly facing and one that that maybe is behind the scenes. Okay, there's an Azzi Company for toilet paper called who gives a crap. Okay, and just the way they drip out content, the way they engage you to refill your toilet paper, they do it in a humorous way, obviously by the name who gives a crap. They've got some, you know, some lightheartedness to it. So I love using humor inside of emails where appropriate, right, especially in a follow up when you're asking for a sale about toilet paper. Like I think that's a perfect match. When it comes to personal brands, there's a few people who hard. Really recommend you go and look so Ian Stanley, Dan, Henry, Frank Kern, he's really good. Or get my whole Justin Golf. I've got I'm listening a whole bunch of riders. But they know how to write emails really well and in suck you in with a good story. So what's the common armor denominator between all those of writers? What do they do well that makes their emails engaging, interesting, emails that you want to read because there always something good that they're going to tell you. I won't lie and say that the person branders are writing exactly like who gives a crap? Who gives a crap is very short, to the point uses humor, but the personal brand is. Now I'm not next hundred percent sure if this applies to big brands, if they want to include a personality behind it and they want to get people invested in the person behind the keyboard there. But that's what they do really well. They let you into their life. They they're not shared too much, but they share enough that you're emotionally invested. They will tell stories of what's going on in their life and then they'll segue into something it's relevant in their offers and then they'll show you a pitch and it's not like a really hard cell. It's like, by the way, if you want to check out what I just spoke about, here's a link, and they all do that very well. On top of that, if they use the subject line that I always give you a payoff towards the start. It's always linked to the email. It's not this click bade subject line you might see a lot with some companies having that payoff as right after that ready the first few lines is really critical. Now you've hinted along the way about email marketing. That encourages people to buy things, and I think a lot of marketers are focused on education and engagement. If I can tell a prospect or a customer about something new that we've developed or an event we're going to or a new hire or something along those lines are interesting third party content. That's seen as a focus. But what about driving sales? I mean, if we're going to get down and dirty about this, really looking at email marketing as a conversion tool to somehow get people to do something which in many cases is make a purchase. So what are some of the keys to making email marketing of revenue engine. What should marketers be thinking of when they craft those email campaigns? It's a really calm mistake, in my opinion, to as soon as someone signs up, to flood them with content. We're in undated with content, to be honest. So what I like to do with clients is that I like to pick out, when I have a really deep dive of conversation with them, to figure out, you know, what's this person's Day like? What are those struggles? What are their...

...problems? WHO's burnt them before? All these sort of questions that are going inside someone's head when they opt into someone's list. They're a bit wary that. Okay, what are they going to sell me? Or okay, I do have to open this email. So I love picking out stories of people, of past customers who have been in their position, that answer a specific objection in their head and walk them through like they're not alone, like they've been in the shoes, like the purse, someone else is being in their shoes before and the person on the other end of the email, person's doing the selling, is the guide. They're not the star of the show. They've just helped the other person out. Generally, what I do with my clients is it's a link to book a call. Scarcity, urgency goes along way. There's only so so many things you can do with booked calls, but one thing that you can do honestly and with integrity. You say, look, I've only got enough time my calendar to do it calls per month, so there's only about two per week. To avoid disappointment, click the link to book call at that's that's a good starting point, especially for in the Betab space. The other thing, or one of the many things that marketers are absessed with as Newsletter Subscriptions, where we've got that sign up CTA everywhere and anywhere. We're begging for people to join our email Dataly. So I've got a couple of questions for you relate to that. One is, how do you encourage people are what are the things that you need to do to make newsletter sign ups more appealing? And on the other side, there's a whole conversation going around about gated versus ungated content. The idea that whether I need to give you my email address to get content or whether I get it no questions are why don't you address the gated versus ungated issue first and then we'll take into how to drive subscriptions. While we completely can with the audience and a list building is not my strength, but I have still do it. I still listen to people and is actually interesting. I had a guest to my show called Andre Zikovich, and he was talking about content upgrades, and that goes back to your point where how much is gated and how much is ungated, and it was really interesting he said when he was having these content upgrades where, you know, there was a pretty good blog post, it gave most of it, but if they wanted more they had to give their email. And this was from, you know, Keyword, keyword research, Seo blog, blog posts, and he was finding that the leads were really all the people on the list which just not engaged. They do were interested on clicking the links. They weren't his audience and I found that really interesting because so many people are like Lea's leads, leads building this build a list, but if it they're not the right audience, they're not interested in what you have to say. After then it doesn't make a lot of sense. So what he did was, after that gated content, he asked them some questions, just like a he made them jump through hoops on purpose, seem like what kind of industry are you in? A what are your struggles with right now? And it was like a dropdown thing and if people didn't answer it, then they didn't go into his list. But he found when you filtered it, he got much, much more of a responsive list because of that. And then the related question is about email subscriptions. Everybody wants people to sign up for their newsletters and that's in some respects that's a key metric for a lot of marketers, especially email marketers, and he thoughts about how to make new how to how to encourage people to sign up for a newsletter. Or it is it? Is it the CTA? Is Is it the sales copy? How do you make that happen? Number one, avoid calling it a newsletter, because we've all heard, we all know what we're in for for a newsletter. Right. It could be some negative emotion attached to what you do. You just don't know what's going on in their day. So call it something, call it your own thing. I haven't got one myself. I like to all that jewels as world, but I...

...don't publicize that round. I don't call it, well, I don't so like welcome to the list, because it just sounds like they're part of a herd or something. But things that I like to do is going on podcasts and, you know, talking about a free be and then not revealing everything about the free be and then leaving it as a Ceti or with what I'm on social media on Linkedin. I love. I love doing this is where you tell a short story and that's related to a one that you can solve food customer, and then in the comments you would have some little ps or by the way, and always link it back to the story. By the way, if if you're finding that you can't, if you finding you can't nail the right subject line, he's fifty more, he's a link below, something like that, and that leads to your landing page and your content. That was just an example pulled out of my butt, but I think you guys get the picture. And then the flip side. What about unsubscribes? Because personally, when somebody am subscribed to my news letter, it just it's just a little painful prick. It's like, Oh my God, I disappointed somebody even though they probably got lots of reasons. Maybe their emboxes are over and wellbeing. Now, how do you deter people from unsubscribing? I'm going to challenge you on this one, mark, because I encourage people sometimes to unsubscribe. So at the start, especially for client emails, like I said, it's start, like set the expectations. WHO This for, what they're striving with, and you know there might be at some sort of part of the journey. So if there might be, from intermediate to advance, you say, if you're starting out on your journey, I don't I don't wish waste your time. Please unsubscribe here. But but like you, mark, you know sometimes I feel a bit cut that someone I'm subscribe for my list, and I know exactly what you mean, like you put all this effort into content marketing and people are leaving. What did I do wrong? But they are not a good mindset shift. I heard from someone who's got a bigger list that they encourage you to she encouraged me to think, Goodie, this person isn't the right fit and means I don't have to waste my time anymore trying to convince you or trying to persuade you. Okay, you're not the right fit for me and I'm okay with that. I guess is toops two sides. That unsubscribed question. Just for fun. Have you read a good book recently or is there a podcast that you're really excited about that you listen to all the time? Okay, so one book I'm Reading One chapter a time is called the forty eight laws of power. It is a really good book. It is got so many stories in there that just engage you and it gives you such a deep dive into the history of how different historical leaders have used on what we want to call a persuasion, manipulation coercion to gain power. And it's not necessarily how to you, you're not reading it to become evil, but it helps you understand pipe power dynamics and how you can avoid getting sucked into other people's traps and know what's going on behind the scenes, so to speak, and I think it's been a really good book to read. I haven't read that book, but I will add it to my long reading list. I'll now that collably over, maybe I won't have as much time to read. Yeah, but final question. Where can people learn about you and what you do. If you would love to learn a little bit more about me, go check out my podcast, storytelling secrets. I do one solo show per week where I document the journey, I give you some results, I give you heaps a little tips along the way, and I also have one guest podcast per week. And as far as finding out what you do, Linkedin, I guess, is the go to place for many of us these days. Yeah, Linkedin best place. I'm juels Dan on Linkedin. I'm not sure if your audience once of Freebee, but I do have that on offer as well if you just want to check out the content the podcast or Linkedin. That's fun. Fils, it's been a great pleasure to have you on the PODCAST, although I'm sorry to say you weren't the first US railing and a podcast, but it's always good to get different voices in different places. Thanks for being on the show. It's been...

...it on and thank you so much for having me on the show. Mark. Thanks for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review and subscribe by Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP if you'd like to learn more about how I help BDB SASS companies as a fractional CMO truggic advisory coach. Send an email to mark at marketing sparkcom. I'll talk to you next time.

In-Stream Audio Search


Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (106)