Who gives a crap about email marketing: Jules Dan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The “unsubscribe” notification is painful.

Someone wants to end a relationship.

They want you out of their lives.

It’s not them, it’s you…and your newsletter.

But is the unsubscribe really that bad?

Should marketers, in fact, celebrate unsubscribes?

When you step back, someone disconnecting from a newsletter means they’re not your target audience.

The effort invested to create a newsletter isn’t resonating with them. 

So, it’s perfectly fine for both sides to move on.

On the Marketing Side podcast, Jules Dan said it’s more important to focus on the people who want your email marketing. 

“I sometimes encourage people to unsubscribe.”

It's Mark Evens and you're. Listeningto marketing part. You know, marketing is alive well and thriving. Eighty ninepercent of marketers US email as a primary channel for generating leadsfifty nine percent of baby marker for for email for the generation as well.You know marketing generates forty two, as in our alive for every dollar. Today, I'm talking to Jules Dan, anemail copywriter who haves coaches and consultants can print more leads in thecustomers, go up in a marketing par mark. It's a pleasure to be on the showand thanks to have on have you had it Ozzie before on the show. You are the second one I've actuallyhad on the show and that the second marketer, so you don't get that honor,but it's very exciting to have someone away across the world the on thepodcast. This is a global podcast. By the way, so you know I try to reach outto all continents and obvious first question amid the vast digital buffetof marketing channels, why is email so powerful? Why does it work so well and as important? What's behind thestain power, I mean every time you say or think that email is going todisappear because of slack or text messaging or another medium. It keepson going yea provida explanation about why email is o around and still themarketing channel for many companies. Of course, I've got a little story toillustrate this point and it's really dead to my heart, because when I firststarted this game, I was doing a lot of face book gads and Chat Bots at thetime, so bots and everyone knows how, at the time in two thousand andeighteen, if you were doubling in Chat Bats, how Facebo K would just changethe rules all the time- and I remember I created this brilliant campaign whereit just sucked out leads for this client and then overnight my whole chatbot sequence. I'd spent twenty thirty hours building was flagged as breachingthe terms of service. There was a critical sort of step that I couldn'tdo any more and it was just all gone and I realized at that point. I had nocontrol over that media and I don't think that's a really good spot to bein, especially if you're being a free lance like myself. I don't want to bewalking on egg shells all the time when I'm trying to work with clients andthat's when I swopped to focusing on email because you own you own it. Thereare a few rules. You have to go around, obviously can't span stuff, but for themost part you own, the acid, it's it's not regulated as hard as face book, andit's super easy to just send out emails to customers just to fall up with themto when they give you the mail address. It's easy to break down objections.It's it's one of my favorite medias. I knowyou had a few different questions there. What was what was the second part ofyour question there mark? Well, I'm just wondering why email has stainpower every time. You think that we're at the end of email or emails going tolose a effectless or that marketers aren't going to use the email as oftenit keeps on going. Can you explain that it has something to do with? I don'tknow why the everyone just loves, checking their emails S, something todo with just like I've got the notification have to open it, and Idon't know what the statistics are, but it's, if you check out hub spot, it'ssomething crazy. So many people check their email, so the fact that thatthey're checking it and then we're able to at least deliver a message to thatto that medium to that media, I think it's really powerful. Well, I rememberwhen the blackberry first came out and the idea of mobile email was thisamazing thing. It started this whole craze about people staring out at theirdevices all the time, because the ability to get email on the road wasastounding, and now we check it wherever and whenever I guess it's ait's an addiction for many people. Over the last year, when we haven't beenable to go a conference, isn't it we haven't been able to see people inperson, although in Australia the...

...situation is completely different,things seem to be pretty open down there. Email, along with contentmarketing, have been levered by marketers to the ant. I suspect thatmost people's in boxes are overflowing with email and the question to you as amid this sunamein and the fact that we're all leveraging it soenthusiastically. What are the keys to email, marketing success? I realizethat is a loaded question and there's lots of ways you can go here, but whatare best practices to breaking through when someone opens their in box andthere's dozens of emails waiting for them? So the whole point: it's like go backto that now, like trust factor and setting this stage in the agenda earlyon. So when someone optes Opson for you Freebie, you want to be getting them to consume, you free, bebecause that's I know it's really hard to do, because not many people ever dothat. But you know in that first email. You wantto get them to consume it so having that link at the top, and then you wantto give in some sending some expectations like I'm going to beemailing you a few times a week, something that I like to do with myclients is that over the next few days, you're going to hear some stories aboutpaying point. Can point pain, point stuff that really did that mark marketand in the PS I'll be like help you cut through the clutter, look out for J Das like a prefix and that's, and that way you know it's a real email from me.Those are just some things that I like to do to set the stage really early onand do not do what a lot of people linked in do is where you add someone,and then they automatically add them to your email list. That's one of theworst things you could do yeah it's a good segue into my next question, whichis really about email, marketing mistakes, and I think you and I seethem every day when an email comes into the urn box and you look at it and go.Oh my God. I can't believe the marketer actually did something like that. Canyou highlight the things that email marketers shouldn't do and must be someobvious things that set off red flags and almost cause you to respond to themarketer and say: Listen, I got to tell you something that email you sent wasjust terrible, and can I please help you do marketing better? What are someof those mistakes that you run into? Okay? So would you be interested inmore and say like the copy or just sort of sending elements that land in theINBOX? Well, I think both I mean. I think there are mistakes that marketersmake when it comes to best practices as far as deliver ability, and there aremistakes that marketers make when it comes to content. So may you can touchupon both yeah, we'll start on content first, because that's a thing a goingto get now at first before you worry about deliverable one of the huge big in sakes I had whenI first started writing email copy was that I had. I was just my attention wasscattered everywhere there wasn't an agenda. There wasn'tone thing to focus on and what happens is that people go on tangents a lotwhen they write emails so either they'll tell a story or they want topromote a more than one thing and people confused people are aredistracted. So if you can keep the premise, but whenyou start writing email, I always ask the question: What's my objective andthat just makes it a lot clearer, so I don't go off on these side tangents andlook as best. You can keep it to one quarter, action and one link, becausewe could spend an hour talking about you now. How do we structure a story?What's what as some persuasive tactics, but if you can just focus on one thing:one quarter action if you feel like you're, going off on a tangent, rereadit after you've finished out loud and that always helps that's. That's a goodstarting point for the content for deliver ability. I see this a lot markand it's really simple things, but I asked to my clients: Can you changethis and for some reason they don't want to because it takes away from thebranding. But you look at the top email, marketers and they're, always in my inbox, and it's because they've got a...

...plan email. They don't have socialmenia buttons down the bottom. They don't have a huge banner. They don'thave a whole bunch of images and links going everywhere. It's a really cleanemail like it's just come from a friend and that's just what I've noticed andwhen I send my mas out generally, they hit the real inbox. Sometimes they hitthe Promo box. But those are my two tips for content and deliver ability.As they mentioned earlier, beb marketers have been leveraging content,marketing and email marketing over the past year. So one of the things thatI'm interested in is getting some guidance or advice on. How do you marrythe two? How do you leverage the power of content marketing which engages andeducation entertains with the distribution power of email marketing,where best practice is when it comes to getting those two things to worktogether? So when you saying distribution likeyou, want to sort of educate and give them some value, but you also want tosell them as well. Is that what you're asking not so much selling? But theidea is that marketers put a lot of time and effort into creating highquality content. obstnit high quality content allow you could argue thatthere's a lot of content that isn't high quality and they leverage socialmedia face book linked in twitter to get the word out. But email is still agreat distribution vehicle to get content into people's hands. What arethe best practices about using email for content, marketing distribution tomake sure that people see your email, see the content? You've actuallyproduced, I guess we could use the same principle that I use for a lot of mysales emails and that's excitement, but not fulfilment. If that makes sense,you want to get people, you want to tease people, you want to get them hotand heavy and excited a great way to do. This are using John Calton's bullets.If you haven't checked that out, he teaches how to write bullets he's areally good, copywriter and t it just absolutely teases the crap out ofsomeone who's interested in that content, and man like I see some longemails if you're just sending someone to a blood post or a video or somethingthat's a piece of content, it's just a tease that email shouldn't be longerthan say a hundred and fifty two hundred and fifty words, maybe a littlebit of a story, how you discovered it and then you live a bit of a cliffhanger on the end and that cliff hanger is Click. The link- maybe you can talka little bit about bullets like- is that just simply using bulls to breakup copy to make it more accessible user friendly, because when I see a wall oftext in many cases, the first thing that I think I was this is going to bea lot of work. This is going to take some effort and I don't want to work.I've got so much to do. I've only got so much time does bullet sort of trickyour mind into thinking that it's going to be an easy read. Well, I like to think so. The bulletsis just supposed to be getting like getting really excited to click. Thelink. If the one thing I always try and avoid in my bullets is learn the topfive, because, as soon as you say, learn it's like a there's work involved,a something I learned from my mentor says. If you can make like discover thehidden secrets, the secret told to take away these little just action words andcuriosity packed words that might help. I wish I had some examples in front ofme to tell your audience mark, but I does that answer your question. It does.It does, and I think it comes down to the idea that email, like anything, hasto be user friendly. It has to be accessible and like any form of digitalmarketing. It really can't involve a lot of work, because I always suggestthat people are lazy and they don't want to worm they wanted to. They wantto be spoon fed in many cases. One of the topics that I wanted to touch uponis the idea of personalization one of my clients, Co here and path, helpsretailers create what they call content diets. Customers receive emails thatfeature content that is relevant and interesting. Not only encourages you tobuy more of what you've already...

...purchased but explore differentcategories. So I wanted to get your take on email, marketingpersonalization, because a lot of marketers it's it's one and done youblast it out to everybody, or maybe you create a few variations, but I'm not sosure that there's a lot of sophistication when it comes to emailmarketing. Any thoughts about that when you say personalization that goesdown into segmentation is that is that what you're, asking or exactly the ideaof that? The email that I get is going to be different, maybe dramaticallydifferent from the email that you're going to get, because you havedifferent interest than I do. You buy different things or download differentthings than I do. Well, so I'll give you my experience, and I know there aresome people who'd be like VP of marketing and they've got ten differentsegmentation, because they've got a huge company and they've got lots ofdata. For me, I just work with clients. You've got small is list one and a halfto three sand people, usually what I recommend is to have a buyers list anda non buyers list, and the reason why we do that is. If you want to test alittle offer, it's better to test it to the buyers. First, then, it is to, Iknow, we're talking about content marketing before yeah. I've alwaysfound that when you want to test stuff, it's good to send it to the buyers andthat's a sophisticate as I get I hope, but I don't. I know I didn't quiteanswer your question mark, but I'm. If you're going to have some kind ofsegmentation, you don't want to get overwhelmed. I would start there. Ithink, for small customers for customers that haven't got extensiveemail, as that makes a lot of sense, because you don't want to slice anddice a relatively small database. It probably causes more work than it'sworth and you probably don't get the results that you expect yeah, but I dobelieve that people are expecting email to be more personalized to be morerelevant to be more about what their interests are and that, if you're justdoing one email for a vast audience, that's not going to work, it simplywant resonate. Can I county you on that because he had is, is showing up andsome people are afraid to show up. I don't know why, but there's his fear ofsending out more than one email a week or God be fed. God forbid two emailsper week and if you can get to that stage, first,one or two emails a week short like: Let's explore segmentation and how wecan optimize deliver ability, but I think the habit of showing up youraudience knows on this day. Mark sends an email on Tuesdays and Fridays. Thenthat's when you can get fancy with segmentation and stuff, but if you wantto talk about segmentation, probably not the right person to talk to, but ifyou're all met emails at sell. Let's ask about that. Okay, it is interestingwhen you talk about multiple emails a week, just from personal experience.For about four years, I sent an email out featuring curate content onSaturday mornings. I was quite proud of it look. I did all this reading, I'msharing these creative things with you. The email did okay, but at some pointin time I decided that I it had run its course, and I was talking about mybusiness coach and he was saying well, you should send out emails every day ofthe week five days a week and I thought wow, that's going to be that's going tobe a big challenge and I'm not so sure people want to hear me five days a weekand in the end we went back and forth a little bit and I settled on three daysa week and much to my surprise, the reception has been really good. Peopleare actually open to the idea of multiple emails for me as long as thecontents relevant as long as it's interesting and to earlier point aslong as it's not too long, because they don't mind reading a short snippetsfrom the same person. But if it's too much work, they won't, they won't openit and they won't read it exactly exactly I'm on three days aweek as well. I think it's a good amount and it all comes back to whatyou ask the start like. What's the best practices and it's setting the agendaat this time, if you send you one email a week and then you're like hey, I readBen Settles sends out an email every single day, I'm going to do that too,probably going to get a lot of unsubscribed so setting the agendagetting into the habit or if you are...

...going to be sending more at emails,just let them know in advance. That's a good practice. What brands stand out toyou as email marketing champions, who's, doing an amazing job with email?Personally, I look at a company like grammarye that does email marketingreally well, it's engaging sometimes entertaining interesting andprescriptive and along the way, they're trying to up, sell you to gramarypremium jine champions or companies that you look to when your craftingemails that not only engaged but cell as well. I have a few quite a fewpersonal brands. I have one like brand where there's no face behind it, whichone would you like to hear? Let's talk about well give me a couple of examples,so sort of one publicly facing an one that that maybe is behind the scenes.Okay, there's an Ozzy Company for toilet paper called who gives a crapokay and just the way they drip out content. Theway they engage you to refill your toilet paper. They do it in a humorous way, obviouslyby the name who gives a crap they've got some. You know some light hardenersto it, so I love using humor inside of emails were appropriate right,especially in a full op when you're asking for a sale about toieper, like,I think, that's a perfect match when it comes to personal brands, there's a fewpeople who really recommend you go and look at so Anne Stanley, Dan HenryFrank, Kern, he's really good get my whole Justin Golf. I've got I'mlistening a whole bunch of riders, but they know how to write emails reallywell and in Sucken with a good story. So what's the Comon Oma denominatorbetween all those those writers? What do they do? Well? That makes theiremails engaging interesting emails that you want to read because they're alwayssomething good that they're going to tell you. I won't lie and say the thepersonal brand is. are writing exactly like who gives a crap who gives a graphis very short to the point uses human, but the personal brand is now I'm thenext hundred percent sure if this applies to big brands, if they want toinclude a personality behind it and they want and get people invested inthe person behind the keyboard there, but that's what they do really well,they let you into their life. They they don't share too much, but they sureenough that you're, emotionally invested they'll tell stories of what'sgoing on in their life and then they'll segue into something that's relevant intheir offers, and then they'll show you a pitch and it's not like a really hard.So it's like by the way, if you want to check out what I just spoke about, heis a link, and they all do that very well. On top of that, if they use asubject line, they always give your payoff towards the start. It's alwayslinked to the email. It's not this click baby subject line. You might seea lot with some companies having that payoff as right after they read thefirst few lines is really critical. Now you've hinted along the way aboutemail, marketing that encourages people to buy things, and I think a lot ofmarketers are focused on education and engagement. If I can tell a prospect ora customer about something new that we've developed or an event we're goingto or a new hire or something along those lines or interesting. Third Partycontent, that's seen as a focus, but what about driving sales? I mean, ifwe're going to get down and dirty about this, really looking at email market asa conversion tool to somehow get people to do something which in many cases ismake a purchase. So what are some of the keys to making email marketing ofrevenue engine? What should marketers be thinking of when they craft thoseemail campaigns? It's a really calm mistake, in my opinion, to as soon assomeone signs up to flood them with content were inundated with content. Tobe honest, so what I like to do with clients isthat I like to pick out when I have a really deep dived conversation withthem to figgure out. You know: What's...

...this person's Day like what are thesestruggles? What are their problems? WHO's burnt them before all these sortof questions that are going inside someone's head when they oped intosomeone's list they're a bit weary that okay, what are they going to sell me orokay do have to open this email. So I love picking out stories of people ofpast customers who have been in their position that answer a specificobjection in their head and walk them through,like they're, not alone, like they've, been in their shoes like the personsomeone else has been in their shoes before and the person on the other endof the email persons doing the selling is the guide they're, not the star ofthe show. They've just helped the other person out generally. What I do with myclients is it's a link to book a call. Scarcely urgency goes a long way,there's only so many things you can do with booked calls, but one thing thatyou can do honestly and with integrity. You say: Look. I've only got enoughtime, my calendar to do eight calls per month, so there's only about two perweek to avoid disappointment, click the link to book call, and that's that's agood starting point, especially though in the Bababa space. The other thing orone of the many things that marketers are obsessed with is newslettersubscriptions. We've got that sign up C, TA everywhere and anywhere we'rebegging for people to join our email. Dadalus. I've got a couple of questionswhere you relate to that one is. How do you encourage people are? What are thethings that you need to do to make newsletter sign? UPS, more appealingand on the other side, there's a whole conversation goingaround about gated versus ungated content. The idea that, whether I needto give you my email address to get content or whether I get it, noquestions as why? Don't you address the gated versus ungated issue first andthen we'll talk into how to drive subscriptions. Will we completely canwith the audience and not least, building is not my strength, but I have. I still do it. I still listen to peopleand it was actually interesting. I had a guest to mine, show called Andre Zikeand he was talking about content upgrades, and that goes back to yourpoint, where how much is gated and how much is ungated, and it was reallyinteresting. He said when he was having these content upgrades. Where you knowthere was a pretty good blog post. It gave most of it, but if they wantedmore, they had to give their email- and this was from you know key word-Keyword, research, so blog bog post, and he was finding that the leads werereally all the people on the list were just not engaged. They weren'tinterested on clicking the links they weren't his audience, and I found thatreally interesting, because so many people are like Leeds leads leads buildthis build a list, but if it they're not the right audience, they're notinterested in what you have to say after then, it doesn't make a lot ofsense. So what he did was after that gated content. He asked him somequestions just like he made them jump through hoops on purpose. Seen likewhat kind of industry are you in? What are your struggles with right now andit was like a drop down thing, and if people didn't answer it, then theydidn't go into his list, but he found when he filtered it. He got much muchmore of a responsibilits because of that and then the related question is aboutemail subscriptions. Everybody wants people to sign up for their newsletters and that's in some respects. That's a key metric for a lot of marketers,especially email marketers. Any thoughts about how to make knew how toencourage people to sign up for a news letter. I is it is it the CT is. It isit the sales copy. How do you make that happen? Number one avoid calling it anewsletter, because we've all heard we all know what we're roon for for a newsletter right. It could be some negative emotion attached to what you you justdon't know. What's going on on their day, so call it something call it yourown thing. I haven't got one myself. I...

O toll at jewels as world, but I don'tpublicize that round. I don't call it well. I don't say like welcome to thelist because it just sounds like they're part of a herd or something,but things that I like to do is going on podcast and you know talking about aFreebie and then not revealing everything about the Freebie and thenleaving it as a ca or when I'm on social media and linked in a I live. Ilove doing. This is where you tell a short story and that's related to aproblem that you can sell through our customer and then in the comments youwould have some little ps or by the way, and always link it back to the story bythe way, if, if you're, finding that you can't, if you finding you can'tnail the right subject, line he's fifty more he's a link below something likethat, and that leads to your landing page and you content. That was just anexample. I pulled out of my butt, but I think you guys will get the picture andthen the flip side. What about unsubscribed? Because personally, when somebody I'msubscribed to my news letter it just it's just a little painful prick. It's like! Oh, my God. Idisappointed somebody, even though they probably got lots of reasons. Maybethere in boxes are over and whelming to how do you deter people from UNsubscribing I'm going to challenge you on this one mark, because I encouragepeople sometimes to unsubscribed. So at the start, especially for client emails, like I said at the start, like set theexpectations who this for what they're stragling in with- and you know theremight be at some sort of part of the journey. So if there might be from intome to advance you would say if you're starting out in your journey, I don't.I don't wish to waste your time. Please don't subscribe here, but but, like youmight you know. Sometimes I feel a bit cut that someoneI'm subscribed from my list, and I know exactly what you mean life. You put allthis effort into content, marketing and people leaving. What did I do wrong, but the I note good mines or shift. Iheard from someone who's got a big Il list, so they encourage you to. Sheencourage me to think goody. This person isn't the right fit and means Idon't have to waste my time anymore, trying to convince you or trying topersuade you, okay, you're, not the right fit for me and I'm okay with that.I guess is to two sides to that: unsubscribed question: Just for fun,have you read a good book recently or is there a podcast that you're reallyexcited about that? You listen to all the time? Okay, so one book I'm ReadingOne chapter at a time is called the forty eight laws of power. It is areally good book. It has got so many stories in there that just engage youand it gives you such a deep dive into the history of how different historicalleaders have used. I don't what you want to call it. PERSUASION,manipulation, coercion to gain power, and it's not necessarily. How do youyou're not reading it to become evil, but it helps you understand, pipe powerdynamics and how you can avoid getting sucked into other people's traps andknow what's going on behind the scenes so to speak, and I think it's been areally good book to read. I haven't read that book, but I will add it to mylong reading list do well now that coves over, maybe I won't have as muchtime to read yeah but final question. Where can people learn about you andwhat you do if you would love to learn a little bit more about me, go checkout my podcast story, telling secrets. I do one solar shop a week where Idocument the journey. I give you some results. I give you hips of little tipsalong the way and I also have one guest podcast for a week and as far as finding out what you dolinked in, I guess is the go to place for many of us these days yet linked inbest place. I'M JEWELS DOWN ON LINKED IN I'm not sure if you're audience oneof Freebie, but I do have that on offer as well. If you just want to check outthe content, the podcast or linked in that's fine Tis, it's been a greatpleasure to have you on the PODCAST, although I'm sorry to say you weren'tthe first Australian and on podcast, but it's always good to get differentvoices in different places, thanks for...

...being on the show, I've been it on itand thank you so much for having on the show my thanks for listening to anotherepisode of Marketing Park. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave areview and subscribed by I tunes spot ify or your favorite podcast apt. Ifyou like to learn more about how I help pts companies as a fractional, Co,froget advisory coach send an email to mark at marketing spark OCO I'll talkto no. I.

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