Who gives a crap about email marketing: Jules Dan


The “unsubscribe” notification is painful.

Someone wants to end a relationship.

They want you out of their lives.

It’s not them, it’s you…and your newsletter.

But is the unsubscribe really that bad?

Should marketers, in fact, celebrate unsubscribes?

When you step back, someone disconnecting from a newsletter means they’re not your target audience.

The effort invested to create a newsletter isn’t resonating with them. 

So, it’s perfectly fine for both sides to move on.

On the Marketing Side podcast, Jules Dan said it’s more important to focus on the people who want your email marketing. 

“I sometimes encourage people to unsubscribe.”

It's Mark Evans and you're listening tomarketing spark. Email marketing is alive, well and thriving. Eighty nine percentof marketers use email as a primary channel for Januating leads. The fifty ninepercent of B tob marketer for for email. For Lee generation as well, emailmarketing generates forty two of oury for every dollar span. Today I'm talkingto Jules Dan, an email copywriter who helps coaches and consultants convert more leadsinto customers. Welcome to marketing spark. Mark, it's a pleasure to beon the show and thanks to having me on. Have you had an allybefore in the show? You are the second one I've actually had on theshow, and that the second marketer, so you don't get that honor,but it's very exciting to have someone way across the world the on the podcast. This is a global podcast, by the way, so you know Itry to reach out to all continent and obvious first question, amid the vastdigital buffet of marketing channels, why is email so powerful? Why does itwork so well and, as important, what's behind the stain power? Imean, every time you say or think that email is going to disappear becauseof slack or text messaging or another medium. It keeps ongoing. Yeah, providean next one nation about why email is still around and still the marketingchannel off for many companies. Of course, I've got a little story to illustratethis point and it's really did in my heart, because when I firststarted this game I was doing a lot of facebook ads and chat bots atthe time, so bots, and everyone knows how at the time, intwo thousand and eighteen, if you were dabbling and chat bots, how facebookwould just change the rules all the time, and I remember I created this brilliantcampaign where it just sucked out leads for this client and then overnight mywhole chatbot sequence I'd spent twenty thirty hours building, was flagged as breaching theterms of service. There was a critical sort of step that I couldn't doanymore and it was just all gone, and I realized at that point Ihad no control over that media and I don't think that's a really good spotto be in, especially if you're being a freelance like myself. I don'twant to be walking on eggshells all the time when I'm trying to work withclients and that's when I swapped to focusing on email, because you own it. You own it. There are a few rules you have to go around. Obviously you can't spand stuff, but for the most part you own theasset. It's it's not regulated as hard as facebook and it's super easy tojust send out emails to customers just to follow up with them to when theygive you the email address. It's easy to break down objections. It's it'sone of my favorite medias. I know you had a few different questions there. What was what was the second part? Do you question they mark? Well, I'm just wondering why email has stained power. Every time you thinkthat we're at the end of email or email is going to lose a effectnessor that marketers aren't going to use emails, often it keeps on going. Canyou explain that? It has something to do with I don't know why, but everyone just loves checking the emails. Something to do with just like I'vegot this notification off to open it and I don't know what the statisticsare, but it's if you check out hub spot, it's something crazy.So many people check the email. So the fact that they're checking it andthen we're able to at least deliver a message to that', to that medium, to that media. I think it's really powerful. Well, I rememberwhen the blackberry first came out and they the idea of mobile email was thisamazing thing. It started this whole craze about people staring down at their devicesall the time because the ability to get email on the road was astounding.And now we check at wherever and whenever. I guess it's a it's an addictionfor many people. Over the last year when we haven't been able togo to a conference, isn't it? We haven't been able to see peoplein person, although in Australia the situation...

...is completely different. Things seem tobe pretty open down there. Email, along with content marketing, have spendleverage by marketers to the NTH. I suspect that most people's inboxes are overflowingwith email. And the question to you, as a mid this tsunami of emailand the fact that we're all leveraging it so enthusiastically, what are thekeys to email marketing success? I realize that is a load of question andthere's lots of ways you can go here but what are best practices to breakingthrough when someone opens their inbox and there's dozens of emails waiting for them?So the whole point it's like go back to that no, like trust factorand setting these stage and the gender early on. So when someone optins optionfor you free be you want to be getting them to consume you free,because that's I know it's really hard to do, because not when people everdo that, but you know, in that first email you want to getthem to consume it. So having that link at the top and then youwant to give you some setting some expectations, like I'm going to be emailing youa few times a week. Something that I like to do with myclients is that over the next few days you're going to hear some stories aboutpain, point pay and point pain and point stuff that really did that markmarket and in the PS I'll be like to help you cut through the clutter. Look out for jd as like a prefix, and that's and that wayyou know it's a real email from me. Those is just some things I liketo do to set the stage really early on and do not do whata lot of people are linkedin do, is where you add someone and thenthey automatically add them to your email list. That's one of the worst things youcould do. Yeah, it's a good segue into my next question,which is really about email marketing mistakes. And I think you and I seethem every day when an email comes into the your inbox and you look atit and go, Oh my God, I can't believe the marketer actually didsomething like that. Can you highlight the things that email marketers shouldn't do?I must be some obvious things that set off red flags and almost cause youto respond to the marketer and say, Lesten, I gotta tell you something. That email you scent was just terrible and can I please help you domarketing better. What are some of those mistakes that you run into? Okay, so would you be interested in more and say like the copy or justsort of sending elements that land in the INBOX? Well, I think both. I mean I think there are mistakes that marketers make when it comes tobest practices as far as deliverability, and there are mistakes that marketers make whenit comes to content. So maybe you can touch upon both. Yeah,we will start on content first, because that's I think you're going to getthe nail at first before we worry about deliverability. One of the huge beaconstakes I had when I first started writing email copy was that I had wasjust my attention was scattered everywhere. There wasn't an agenda, there wasn't onething to focus on, and what happens is that people go on tangents alot when I write emails. So either they'll tell a story or the wantto promote what more than one thing, and people confused, people a disdistracted. So if you can keep the premise, but when you start writingemail, I always ask the question, what's my objective? And that justmakes it a lot clearer. So I don't go off on these side tangentsand look as best you can keep it to one call to action and onelink, because we could spend an hour talking about, you know, howdo we structure a story? What's what are some persuasive tactics? But ifyou can just focus on one thing, one call to action, if youfeel like you're going off on a tangent, reread it after you finished out loudand that always helps. That's that's a good starting point for the contentfor deliverability. I see this a lot mark and it's really simple things.But I asked to my clients, can you change this, and for somereason that I want to because it takes away from their branding. But youlook at the top email marketers and they always in my inbox and it's becausethey've got a plane email. They don't...

...have social media buttons down the bottomthat don't have a huge banner, they don't have a whole bunch of imagesand links going everywhere. It's a really clean email like it's just come froma friend. And that's just what I've noticed. And when I seen myemails out, generally they hit the real inbox. Sometimes they hit the Promobox, but those are my two tips for content and deliverability. As Imentioned earlier, bb marketers have been leveraging content marketing and email marketing over thepast year. So one of the things that I'm interested in is getting someguidance or advice on how do you marry the two, how do you leveragethe power of content marketing, which engages and educates and entertains, with thedistribution power of email marketing? What are best practice is when it comes togetting those two things to work together. So when you saying distribution, likeyou want to sort of Edge K and give them some value, but youalso want to sell some them as well. Is that we're asking not so muchselling. But the idea is that marketers put a lot of time andeffort into creating high quality content, obstensively high quality content. Allow you couldargue that there's a lot of content that isn't high quality and they leverage socialmedia, facebook linkedin twitter to get the word out. But email is stilla great distribution vehicle to get content into people's hands. What are the bestpractices about using email for content marketing distribution to make sure that people see youremail see the content you've actually produced? I guess we could use the sameprinciple that I use for a lot of my seals emails, and that's excitementbut not fulfillment, if that makes sense. You want to get people, youwant to tase people, you want to get them hot and heavy andexcited. A great way to do these using John Carlton's bullets, if youhaven't checked that out. He taches how to right bullets. He's a reallygood copywritera and it just absolutely tases the crap out of someone who's interested inthat content and man like. I see some long emails. If you justsending someone to a blog post or a video or something that that's a pieceof content, it's just a tease. That email shouldn't be longer than say, a hundred fifty, two hundred and fifty words, maybe a little bitof a story how you discovered it, and then you let a bit ofa cliffhanger on the end, and that cliffhanger is click the link. Maybeyou could talk a little bit about bullets, like is that just simply using bulletsto break up copy, to make it more accessible user friendly? Becausewhen I see a while of tax in many cases it's the first thing thatI think I was this is going to be a lot of work, thisis going to take some effort and I don't want to work. I gotso much to do, I've only got so much time. Does bullets sortof trick your mind into thinking that it's going to be an easy read?Well, I like to think so. The bullets as just supposed to begetting like, getting you really excited to click the link. If the onething I always try and avoid in my bullets is learn the top five,because as soon as you say learn, it's like, oh, there's workinvolved and that's something I learned from my mentor. So if you can makelike discover the hidden secrets, the secret tool to take away these little justaction words and curiosity packed words, that might help. I wish I hadsome examples in front of me to tell your audience mark, but I'm doesthat answer your question? It does, it does, and I think itcomes down to the idea that email, like anything, has to be userfriendly, it has to be accessible and, like any form of digital marketing,it really can't involve a lot of work, because I always suggest thatpeople are lazy and they don't want to work. They wanted to they wantto be spoon fed in many cases. One of the topics that I wantedto touch upon is the idea of personalization. One of my clients, coherent path, helps retailers create what they call content diets. Customers receive emails thatfeature content that is relevant and interesting, not only encourages you to buy moreof what you've already purchased, but explore...

...different categories. So I wanted toget your take on email marketing personalization, because a lot of marketers it's it'sone and done, you blasted out to everybody, or maybe you create afew variations, but I'm not so sure that there's a lot of sophistication whenit comes to email marketing. Any thoughts about that? When you say personalization, that goes down into segmentation. Is that? Is that what you're askingor exactly the idea that the email that I get is going to be different, maybe dramatically different, from the email you're going to get because you havedifferent interest than I do, you buy different things or download different things thanI do. Well, so I'll give you my experience. I know therewas some people who'd be like vypay of marketing and they've got ten different segmentationsbecause they've got a huge company that got lots of data. For me,I just work with clients who've got smallish list, one and a half tothree thousand people. Usually what I recommend is to have a buyers list anda non buyers list, and the reason why we do that is if youwant to test a little offer, it's better to test it to the buyersfirst then it is to I know it'll talk about content marketing before. Yeah, I've always found that when you want to test stuff, it's good tosend it to the buyers. And that's a sophisticate as I get. Ihope, but I don't. I know it didn't quite answer your question mark, but if you're going to have some kind of segmentation, you don't wantto get overwhelmed. I would start there. I think, for small customers,for customers that haven't got extensive emails, that makes a lot of sense,because you don't want to slice in days a relatively small database. Itprobably causes more work than it's worth and you probably don't get the results thatyou expect. Yeah, but I do believe that people are expecting email tobe more personalized, to be more relevant, to be more about what their interestsare, and that if you're just doing one email for a vast audience, that's not going to work as simply want Reson. Can I count youon that, because the hard party is is showing up and some people areafraid to show up. I don't know why, but this is fear ofsending out more than one email a week or God to feed God before forbid. Two emails per week. And if you can get to that stage.First, one or two emails a week short, like let's explore segmentation andhow we can optimize the liberability. But think the habit of showing up.Your audience knows on this day. Mark sends an email on Tuesdays and Fridays. Then that's when you can get fancy with segmentations stuff. But if youwant to talk about segmentations, probably not the right person to talk to.But if you will limit emails, that so let's ask about that. Okay. And it is interesting when you talk about multiple emails a week. Justfrom personal experience, for about four years I sent an email out featuring createdcontent on Saturday mornings. I was quite proud of it. Look, Idid all this reading, I'm sharing these creative links with you. The emaildid okay, but at some point in time I decided that it had runits course and I was talking with my business coach and he was saying,well, you should send out emails every day of the week, five daysa week, and I thought, wow, that's going to be that's going tobe a big challenge and I'm not so sure people want to hear mefive days a week. And in the end we went back and forth alittle bit and I settled on three days a week and much to my surprise, the reception has been really good. People are actually open to the ideaof multiple emails for me, as long as the contents relevant, as longas it's interesting and, to earlier point, as long as it's not too long, because they don't mind reading short snippets from the same person, butif it's too much work they won't they won't open it and they won't readit exactly exactly. I'm on three days a week as well. I thinkit's a good amount and it all comes back to what you asked the start, like what's the best practices? And it's setting the agenda at this time. If you send anyone email the week and then you like hey, Ibeen settled real sends out an email every single day, I'm going to dothat too, probably going to get a lot of unsubscribed so setting the agenda, getting into the habit or if you are going to be sending more atemails, just let them know in advance.

That's a good practice. What brandstand out to you as email marketing champions? WHO's doing an amazing jobwith email now? Personally, I look at a company like grammarly that doesemail marketing really well. It's engaging, sometimes entertaining, interesting and prescriptive andalong the way they're trying to upsell you. Two grammarly premium Jeffny champions are companiesthat you look to when your crafting emails that not only engage but sellas well. I have a few, quite a few personal brands. Ihave one like brand where there's no face behind it. Which one would youlike to hear? Let's talk about well, give me a couple of examples.So sort of one publicly facing and one that that maybe is behind thescenes. Okay, there's an Azzi Company for toilet paper called who gives acrap. Okay, and just the way they drip out content, the waythey engage you to refill your toilet paper, they do it in a humorous way, obviously by the name who gives a crap. They've got some,you know, some lightheartedness to it. So I love using humor inside ofemails where appropriate, right, especially in a follow up when you're asking fora sale about toilet paper. Like I think that's a perfect match. Whenit comes to personal brands, there's a few people who hard. Really recommendyou go and look so Ian Stanley, Dan, Henry, Frank Kern,he's really good. Or get my whole Justin Golf. I've got I'm listeninga whole bunch of riders. But they know how to write emails really welland in suck you in with a good story. So what's the common armordenominator between all those of writers? What do they do well that makes theiremails engaging, interesting, emails that you want to read because there always somethinggood that they're going to tell you. I won't lie and say that theperson branders are writing exactly like who gives a crap? Who gives a crapis very short, to the point uses humor, but the personal brand is. Now I'm not next hundred percent sure if this applies to big brands,if they want to include a personality behind it and they want to get peopleinvested in the person behind the keyboard there. But that's what they do really well. They let you into their life. They they're not shared too much,but they share enough that you're emotionally invested. They will tell stories ofwhat's going on in their life and then they'll segue into something it's relevant intheir offers and then they'll show you a pitch and it's not like a reallyhard cell. It's like, by the way, if you want to checkout what I just spoke about, here's a link, and they all dothat very well. On top of that, if they use the subject line thatI always give you a payoff towards the start. It's always linked tothe email. It's not this click bade subject line you might see a lotwith some companies having that payoff as right after that ready the first few linesis really critical. Now you've hinted along the way about email marketing. Thatencourages people to buy things, and I think a lot of marketers are focusedon education and engagement. If I can tell a prospect or a customer aboutsomething new that we've developed or an event we're going to or a new hireor something along those lines are interesting third party content. That's seen as afocus. But what about driving sales? I mean, if we're going toget down and dirty about this, really looking at email marketing as a conversiontool to somehow get people to do something which in many cases is make apurchase. So what are some of the keys to making email marketing of revenueengine. What should marketers be thinking of when they craft those email campaigns?It's a really calm mistake, in my opinion, to as soon as someonesigns up, to flood them with content. We're in undated with content, tobe honest. So what I like to do with clients is that Ilike to pick out, when I have a really deep dive of conversation withthem, to figure out, you know, what's this person's Day like? Whatare those struggles? What are their...

...problems? WHO's burnt them before?All these sort of questions that are going inside someone's head when they opt intosomeone's list. They're a bit wary that. Okay, what are they going tosell me? Or okay, I do have to open this email.So I love picking out stories of people, of past customers who have been intheir position, that answer a specific objection in their head and walk themthrough like they're not alone, like they've been in the shoes, like thepurse, someone else is being in their shoes before and the person on theother end of the email, person's doing the selling, is the guide.They're not the star of the show. They've just helped the other person out. Generally, what I do with my clients is it's a link to booka call. Scarcity, urgency goes along way. There's only so so manythings you can do with booked calls, but one thing that you can dohonestly and with integrity. You say, look, I've only got enough timemy calendar to do it calls per month, so there's only about two per week. To avoid disappointment, click the link to book call at that's that'sa good starting point, especially for in the Betab space. The other thing, or one of the many things that marketers are absessed with as Newsletter Subscriptions, where we've got that sign up CTA everywhere and anywhere. We're begging forpeople to join our email Dataly. So I've got a couple of questions foryou relate to that. One is, how do you encourage people are whatare the things that you need to do to make newsletter sign ups more appealing? And on the other side, there's a whole conversation going around about gatedversus ungated content. The idea that whether I need to give you my emailaddress to get content or whether I get it no questions are why don't youaddress the gated versus ungated issue first and then we'll take into how to drivesubscriptions. While we completely can with the audience and a list building is notmy strength, but I have still do it. I still listen to peopleand is actually interesting. I had a guest to my show called Andre Zikovich, and he was talking about content upgrades, and that goes back to your pointwhere how much is gated and how much is ungated, and it wasreally interesting he said when he was having these content upgrades where, you know, there was a pretty good blog post, it gave most of it, butif they wanted more they had to give their email. And this wasfrom, you know, Keyword, keyword research, Seo blog, blog posts, and he was finding that the leads were really all the people on thelist which just not engaged. They do were interested on clicking the links.They weren't his audience and I found that really interesting because so many people arelike Lea's leads, leads building this build a list, but if it they'renot the right audience, they're not interested in what you have to say.After then it doesn't make a lot of sense. So what he did was, after that gated content, he asked them some questions, just like ahe made them jump through hoops on purpose, seem like what kind of industry areyou in? A what are your struggles with right now? And itwas like a dropdown thing and if people didn't answer it, then they didn'tgo into his list. But he found when you filtered it, he gotmuch, much more of a responsive list because of that. And then therelated question is about email subscriptions. Everybody wants people to sign up for theirnewsletters and that's in some respects that's a key metric for a lot of marketers, especially email marketers, and he thoughts about how to make new how tohow to encourage people to sign up for a newsletter. Or it is it? Is it the CTA? Is Is it the sales copy? How doyou make that happen? Number one, avoid calling it a newsletter, becausewe've all heard, we all know what we're in for for a newsletter.Right. It could be some negative emotion attached to what you do. Youjust don't know what's going on in their day. So call it something,call it your own thing. I haven't got one myself. I like toall that jewels as world, but I...

...don't publicize that round. I don'tcall it, well, I don't so like welcome to the list, becauseit just sounds like they're part of a herd or something. But things thatI like to do is going on podcasts and, you know, talking abouta free be and then not revealing everything about the free be and then leavingit as a Ceti or with what I'm on social media on Linkedin. Ilove. I love doing this is where you tell a short story and that'srelated to a one that you can solve food customer, and then in thecomments you would have some little ps or by the way, and always linkit back to the story. By the way, if if you're finding thatyou can't, if you finding you can't nail the right subject line, he'sfifty more, he's a link below, something like that, and that leadsto your landing page and your content. That was just an example pulled outof my butt, but I think you guys get the picture. And thenthe flip side. What about unsubscribes? Because personally, when somebody am subscribedto my news letter, it just it's just a little painful prick. It'slike, Oh my God, I disappointed somebody even though they probably got lotsof reasons. Maybe their emboxes are over and wellbeing. Now, how doyou deter people from unsubscribing? I'm going to challenge you on this one,mark, because I encourage people sometimes to unsubscribe. So at the start,especially for client emails, like I said, it's start, like set the expectations. WHO This for, what they're striving with, and you know theremight be at some sort of part of the journey. So if there mightbe, from intermediate to advance, you say, if you're starting out onyour journey, I don't I don't wish waste your time. Please unsubscribe here. But but like you, mark, you know sometimes I feel a bitcut that someone I'm subscribe for my list, and I know exactly what you mean, like you put all this effort into content marketing and people are leaving. What did I do wrong? But they are not a good mindset shift. I heard from someone who's got a bigger list that they encourage you toshe encouraged me to think, Goodie, this person isn't the right fit andmeans I don't have to waste my time anymore trying to convince you or tryingto persuade you. Okay, you're not the right fit for me and I'mokay with that. I guess is toops two sides. That unsubscribed question.Just for fun. Have you read a good book recently or is there apodcast that you're really excited about that you listen to all the time? Okay, so one book I'm Reading One chapter a time is called the forty eightlaws of power. It is a really good book. It is got somany stories in there that just engage you and it gives you such a deepdive into the history of how different historical leaders have used on what we wantto call a persuasion, manipulation coercion to gain power. And it's not necessarilyhow to you, you're not reading it to become evil, but it helpsyou understand pipe power dynamics and how you can avoid getting sucked into other people'straps and know what's going on behind the scenes, so to speak, andI think it's been a really good book to read. I haven't read thatbook, but I will add it to my long reading list. I'll nowthat collably over, maybe I won't have as much time to read. Yeah, but final question. Where can people learn about you and what you do. If you would love to learn a little bit more about me, gocheck out my podcast, storytelling secrets. I do one solo show per weekwhere I document the journey, I give you some results, I give youheaps a little tips along the way, and I also have one guest podcastper week. And as far as finding out what you do, Linkedin,I guess, is the go to place for many of us these days.Yeah, Linkedin best place. I'm juels Dan on Linkedin. I'm not sureif your audience once of Freebee, but I do have that on offer aswell if you just want to check out the content the podcast or Linkedin.That's fun. Fils, it's been a great pleasure to have you on thePODCAST, although I'm sorry to say you weren't the first US railing and apodcast, but it's always good to get different voices in different places. Thanksfor being on the show. It's been...

...it on and thank you so muchfor having me on the show. Mark. Thanks for listening to another episode ofmarketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review and subscribeby Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP if you'd like to learn moreabout how I help BDB SASS companies as a fractional CMO truggic advisory coach.Send an email to mark at marketing sparkcom. I'll talk to you next time.

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