Embracing Demand Gen Amid Challenging Economic Times

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

As B2B SaaS sales become more challenging, demand gen can be an important way for companies to attract, educate, encourage, and nurture prospects.

In this episode of Marketing Spark, Chris Roche talks about the benefits of demand gen and how companies can get started or ramp up their efforts.

We also talk about how B2B SaaS brands can leverage LinkedIn and experiment with TikTok.

In the marketing world. Demand Jen and outbound marketing are ying and Yang. They attract evangelists, specialists, advocates and practitioners who fervently waved the flag for one side or the other at a high level. Demand jet is about leads coming to you after discovering and engaging with your marketing and sales content and games, and outbound is when sales try to spark conversation with leads. It's often about pushing the message to as many people as possible and hoping that some of it resonates. So what's the better approach and how could they be impacted by slower economic growth? To answer these questions, I'm excited to be talking with Christomer Roche. He's a CEO of Catalyst Consulting, a revenue and Pipeline Growth Focus Marketing Agency. Welcome to marketing spark, I think about having me looking forward to dive into this with you. Okay, so first question. How did I do with my definition of demand Jen and outbound marketing on a scale the one ten? How would you grade me? Know I was a solid definition on it. It's really I think, the the key difference to understand is the outbound is really sales on demand Jen folds into marketing and what a lot of betob companies are doing right now with the Lea Jen approach is really a subsection of sales. So you have a lot of markets that, in my opinion, a really more concentrated on kind of sales activities, on creating these lead creating opportunities that then enter that and you will hamster wheel and ultimately pass on to that sales team. So there is a very clear difference between cold outbound and demand generation, but there is also a way to leverage demand generation to be able to create a strong inband approach which ultimately makes your sales teams life a lot easier. Off The top, I mean one of the eight hundred pound elephants in the room is the economic slowdown and how consumer behavior has abruptly change. I mean, wasn't that long ago that people were spending...

...budgets for healthy everybody's having a good time. Growth is very strong, and now it's the complete reverse. By just are shrinking, growth is slowing down. How do you think or how do you see the landscape or demand Jin and outbound marketing change in just are you already seen the impact of store economic growth. Yeah, this current economic downturn is going to play a very interesting factor in what happened to the next one to eighteen months with marketing teams and marketing approaches. With my clients, we really specialize in demand generation, in demand capture channels. We're seeing the benefits of this slowdown already in the fact that we've seen in some CPMS dropped by even thirty percent so far. So for us, with the demand generation strategy, we're not looking at what deals it's going to result in in one month, in three months time. That's really where we'll folcus on the demand capture and even just the existing pipeline and how we're movie people through. When we're creating these demand neration approaches, we're looking out twelve to eighteen months and what we're seeing is a lot of companies are hesitant to invest right now. So marketing is the first thing that you can reduce the budget from, which means this less competition. So we're in a really strong position now to be able to continue to invest in wordually increasing budgets during this, you know, entering this recession because of the fact that we're able to get stronger results now knowing that into twelve to eighteen months time, we're going to be able to reap the rewards of that want. People are now able to buy a new software, have the, you know, permission from CEO to go and invest in in new software and not buying cycle becomes open again. It's an interesting perspective and I think it's one that a lot of people have the top time accepting these days. Is the idea that you can stand up rather than stand down when it comes to marketing, because the gut reaction when people experience and economic slowdown is to make rast decisions, to slam on the brakes, and the reality is is let many entrepreneurs have never seen a recession, let alone an economic slow down. Do you think...

...you are being bold or are you being realistic in the fact that you've decided to push forward with marking, which I personally think is the smarter approach? I think there's going to be companies that will have windows of opportunity that they've never seen before and others will sort of sit on the sidelines. What you're thinking in terms of your mindset when it comes to getting more aggressive with marketing? Yeah, I mean the kneedjate reaction is to reduce marketing spending. Like I say, it's the easiest to reduce straight off the bat if you're looking at how you can be more conservative. The difference, third and the perception and the perspective that I have is that during Covid in two thousand and twenty, in March two thousand and twenty, when a lot of companies stopped investing in marketing and everybody shut down, the company I was working with then we increased our spending marketing. We went fully virtual, we went a hundred percent remote. With that, we were investing in these social channels and that was our most explosive year for growth and we hit revenues that we weren't expected to hit for two three years out because of the fact that we invest in the right time. And this, for me, is a very similar opportunity, if you can invest in marketing in the right way. The interesting thing is a lot of companies right now invest in and more beater be companies investing more in this league and approach, which we talked about, you know, a little bit earlier, kind of touching on the fact that they're just trying to create opportunities to pass onto the sales team if nobody's buying right now, and only ever two to three percent of your mark is in this buying mode at any given points. So if people are reluctant to purchase or invest in you software and you're not able to sell as much in the next twelve month window, what you can do instead is shift that focus on creating demand so that in twelve to eighteen months, when these companies now open up that buying opportunity, they already a branded where their solution aware and you've been able to hit them with educational content over the last twelve months and have those relationships already formed to ultimately increase the conversion right then, once we ideally exit out of this recession. A couple of points that I wanted to follow up on. One is that your statement that in early two thousand and twenty I experienced personally,...

...having lost my job as the head of marketing for a Fintech Company, that marketing spending disappeared. It evaporate overnight. Literally people were spooped and the first thing to cut. Marketing is always an easy thing to get rid of. I mean, you know it's not seen as a lead gentle or some more things as expense by many companies. But don't you think that a lot of companies should have learned their lesson when they look back at how they behaved in early twenty and what happens subsequently when the market started to come back and they had to play catch up? Don't you think that many of these companies understand that if you back down to dramatically, it's going to cost you in the long run? Did A lot of companies not learn their lessons? I think it's different from a company learning the lesson and they head of marketing at a company learning the lesson, and that's where you have, you know, larger ships. It's more difficult to turn, it's more difficult to pivot and for a lot of these companies that have over inflayd sales teams, that have these enormous overhead, it's very difficult to make those changes. And what we're so what here is switching to demand generation, which is a much more cost effective strategy at lowering that custom requisition cost. When you're talking more B Tob companies with ACVs of tenzero dollar plus. That's where demand generation can be very, very effective. But just because you head of marketing understands that I wants to make that switch, doesn't mean that they're always in a position to be able to first of all, relay that effectively to that CEO, to that board, to whoever is to get that permission to do that, and then, secondly, be able to justify that with historical metrics and say, Hey, this is what we saw and we did this in two thousand and twenty. We saw we had a downturn. Let's avoid that invest out here, because if they're not able to explain that effectively, they're not going to get the buy in from their leadership. Our word. They came to mind when you were talking about building demand Jin and looking out twelve to eighteen months when people are ready to buy again. More and more people are ready to buy software. Is Patients. Is that an accurate depiction of the approach that company should be taking? So you make the investment in demand Jin, you're out there...

...driving brand awareness, demonstrating the value of your product, whether it's software or hardware, and then when the market comes back or more buy or right themselves, you'll be well positioned to take advantage of that. Is Patience. The right word. Yeah, I mean marketing is a long term game. You have to view marketing with a long term Lens. You have to use success met tricks over a twelve to eighteen month pit window and period. If you're looking at how we can close deals in the next six weeks, marketing isn't the answer for that. You're looking more really out on sales for that, and that's where, again, it's the short term versus a long term. You have to balance as to which is going to ultimately benefit you. When you talk about ways to reach your entire audience over prolong period of time, that's where the myn generation can be very, very effective. But you have to understand that there is only a very small percent of your market who's ever going to be in buying mode. So when we talk about two to three percent, that's going to reduce over the next twelve months. We may be told about one percent, less than one percent of your entire market who's actively buying right now. So you're going to focus all of your attention on trying to peep with that one percent or how you can educate the ninety nine percent so that when it opens up, then again you have that brand awadeness, will get into your approach. It demand, Jen, because I'm really curious about how you're executing for clients and the approach that you're taking and the advice that you're giving them. But one question I did want to ask you is in terms of outbound, particularly around email marketing. What I've seen from working with clients is that outbound in theory generate short term results. So if you're panicking about softer sales right now, the default might be to ramp up your email marketing to get those campaigns going so you can generate interest in your product. But what I'm seeing is that outbound campaigns aren't resonating right now, is that many companies are using the same technique, pulling in the same levers and in boxes for prospects are getting pounded and a lot of that is being ignored. There's no engagement, there's certainly no conversations happening. My clients a backdown on email marketing and they're trying to fair and out. What do we do...

...now? What are your thoughts about email marketing, which has been a huge growth engine for the last five ten years? Yeah, I mean I think it's two thousand and twenty two and a lot of people are immune to email marketing into in a way to reach out to the same way if you linkedin cold message me, it's not going to resonate the same that it would ten years ago. It's you know, there is this ability now and this immunity. The bias have built up to the fact that they know this is an automated sequence. They know that getting involved, they know this is hopes about melchimp whatever that email provider is. So they understand what's going on and quite often that's going to ultimately do more harm the good, because you're going to have now that negative brand connotation of the fact that you are outboundy, you know, to people that aren't in buying mode. And the best advice I would give to anyone that's looking at how to basically shift perspective or what to do right now is put yourselves in the shoes of the buyer. If we're entering this economic downturn and you're not in a position to buy, don't hound them in the fact that then you can try and justify and somehow convince them to buy right now. Have a SDR call the once a week for the next twelve months when instead you can focus on a much less touch point focus campaign where you can educate them, you can entertain them, you can justify how the product of service works in a way that, to your potential buyer, feels natural and organic, because it's being consumed in news feeds, in Linkedin news feed, in facebook news feed, in video streams, whatever that is. Put it in a way that it can be natively consumed so that you're not having to constantly drive people to a website, to a landing page download something, which again is not the way that modern buyers, especially in be to be by. This is juxtaposition that I'm thinking about as you talk. One has the idea of patients, but the other side of the coin is that we live in instant gratification world. As marketers, you know, we're expected to perform miracles literally overnight, and and companies have all kinds of data to determine whether we're doing the job or not. So if we turn our sites to demand Jin and we look at it as a long term proposition,...

...how do you measure the succepted demand Jin in the short term when you got the CEO or the chief revenue officer or the head of sales is looking at you, the marketer, and saying, okay, we buy into this demand Gen strategy. But what's going on where my leads, where my sales? Can't wait a long time before I see some traction. So how do you balance the realities of demand Jen and the end the benefits of demand Jen with the idea that people want instagratific? The best way to convince the CEO to move from Legion to Demand Jin is to review the historical data over the past twelve months and show what that baseline is, because then you have something to be measured against. The issue that I see with a lot of companies and what I'm consulting with CMOS who want to make the jump, but is simply don't know how to get the buy in. It's there is this anecdotal data of what a customer acquisition cost is without any hard evidence. And when you actually break down the funnel and you look at you know what the return is of going to that showcase, what the event is going to that convention, investing in Google adds, and you look at the Legion approach that you've been investing in very heavily for the past. You know, really for a lot of companies ten years, break it down over twelve the period and see what the true Christal reck position cost is, and then so talk about how you can start to shift certain elements of that budget. And it doesn't have to be a hundred percent switch. You can start to break off small percents of the budgets to be able to test some more of these demand generation approaches. So, for instance, a lot of companies that come to me all heavily overinvesting in Google, adds in the fact that there's only a small segment that's actually ever resulting in new business and they are maybe spending fifty percent more than they should be. Break Off that budget just to find how that's not return it resulting in any profit or revenue for the company inclosed one, and then shift that budget to more of the demand generation techniques, to which the metrics that we're looking for here are really going to be consumption. Can we see an increase in hand raisers? Are we seeing the right people interacting with the content that we're pushing primarily on channels like linkedin? Are we see your...

ICP engaging with it? And then, from an anecdotal standpoint, when you're having conversations. Ask Your Sdrs and your count exactly is to have those conversations with leads and potential buyers that are coming in when they say, Hey, how did you hear about us? Oh, I see your linkedin post all the time. I see all the videos that you're having on this, this and this. You start to see and get that feedback very early on that this is being seen by the right audience. And then it's about understanding that this is a six to nine month investment of educating that potential buyer to when they actually enter that by a mode and from a CEO, it can be very difficult to understand that this is a long term Lens and from a marketer is vital to be able to explain that. These the metrics looking for right now. Over three months will see an increase in organic traffic, will see an increase in direct traffic, will start to see people citing different linkedin videos, different content that we're producing, and then we'll start to see that cushmrck position cost lower and ultimately sales cycle shorten, assuming that the head of marketing in is able to convince other people within the C suite that the man generation is the way to go. It's the most effective way to attract and engage prospects, even during typical economic times, and the leadership team says, okay, we buy in, we we understand that this is probably the best way forward. How do you get started? Like, what are the steps for a company, especially ones that hasn't used a Managin, to get going so that they can see that something good is happening, that, even if it's going to take a long time to come to fruition, that there is sort of light at the end of the tunnel? Where do you start? What's the what are the first steps? Yeah, sort of. The first of I will do for launching any demand generation campaign is to figure out the size of the audience that you want to be targeting over that twelve month period. So this is really your ICEP, your idea of customer profile. From here, don't over inflate your ICB. Focus on really who is your best possible customers that are going to come in. Understand what that audience is very simple...

...way. Once you have an understanding of what those demographics are, the size of the company, the job titles and whatever other kind of a demographics of who you're trying to sell to. Put that into linkedin and see the size of that audience. From here you can roughly assume is about a forty percent adoption from the size of the audience, that WHO's actually going to be on Linkedin and a frequent manner where you can hit them to the point where demand generation is going to work. So if we have a hundred thousand people on Linkedin, realistic was fortyzero people that you can then be targeting on a consistent basis. From there you can understand what frequency you want to hit that audience with and how that budget is going to them be used towards targeting that. So, for instance, if you want to hit them, and I recommend between three to five times per months and a frequency of three to five with different types of content, from there understand what your budget is. If your budget is significantly larger than it would then it would require really to hit them three to five times. At that point you can increase the audience. You can look at different channels. If you have a five million audience that you've sized up and linked in with a twentyzero dollars budget, you need to be more specific with who that I sep is. So again, it's about understanding the frequency of how often you can hit that target audience and how precise you want to be, and then build up an adjust a budget from there. Won't you start to produce that content? Most of the content that I'm producing for clients and when I'm working with clients is all content that can be consumed natively within the news feed, and we're really specialized in linkedin and Google adds. To start off with, you o our demand capture channel or demand generation channel. So with linked in, with very heavily focused on carousels. We're focused on videos, we're focused on case studies that will turn into videos and carousels in ways that can be consumed and help educate your potential buy without them ever having to leave the platform, because not only is that a more cost effective way of distributing the campaign in terms of the objectives and a lower CPM cost, but also the ability to actually hit your intended audience goes through the roof rather than having to have you know, ninety seven percent of people not click through to the landing page. Five percent then actually download the white paper, whatever that is. Focus cous on how you can hit the largest audience...

...consistently over and over again and then start to educate and building new content every four to six weeks so that they're constantly being taken on this journey throughout that demand generation. A bit of a marketing one on one question. You mentioned, you repeatedly mentioned content when you're talking about demand J and. Is Content at the core of demand Jin? Value added, insightful, prescriptive content that educates, engages, encourages enlightened. Is that the core and and if it is, what are the keys to getting companies to embrace a content driven marketing strategy with a lot of companies maybe haven't had to do it before because the manage been so strong. Yeah, content is a key component of any demand generation campaign that we're running. The good news is that most of the companies that I see have this content already. It's just not formatted or it's not in a way that's readily consumed. So most companies have case to these. Most companies have blog articles where they talk about different benefits. Most companies have even, you know, podcast interviews. They have long interviews or long videos that they have on their websites. A lot of this content has been created. It just needs to be repurposed in a way that can really be consumed through in through these platforms of cells, again going back to that consumption within the news feed. So the first step I'm taking with any client when we on boy is looking through right. What is it you've been running, as you add, so far? What kind of lead magness have you been running? What kind of content have you been producing on a regular basis, and how can we then pivot this content into a way that's going to be meaningful and actually be distributed in a more cost effective way across your audience? If you have no content and you don't know where to start, start looking through your website. Start Looking at talking with your sales seem taught with potential bias, see what's resonating with them and produce content around the most the most important features of your product that are resonating with your potential audience. Why are people buying your product? Start to understand that and produce content around that. Then...

...you can start to break off into why this is going to benefit the case studies of the success that you've had and then ultimately get into more product specific demos. Sixty two demos and things like that. The other thing that you mentioned quite often is linkedin. For the last two years I've been at evangelist for Linkedin, having jumped on at hard two years ago. Personally, I've seen amazing results and I've been watching lots of companies leverage linkedin to drive brand awareness, style leadership the generation. But a sense that there's a sort of a bit of a sea change happening with Linkedin, and I think it has to do with the fact that during Covid we all spent a lot of time at home, we all were able to we had control of our own personal destinies and that we could spend a lot of time on linkedin commenting and watching videos. But as people return to work, the linkedin landscape seem to be shifting a little bit now. I could be wrong and you'll probably tell me that I am wrong, but what's your take on linkedin now versus linked in a year ago, and how should companies be approaching it differently? I think the organic reach on Linkedin is definitely down in the last twelve months. So the ability to post a video and have tenzero views on a video is it's non existent now. It just doesn't happen really unless you have a very large following. That being said, you know, similar to how you mentioned, you know, I invest ton of time into Linkedin. I produce video content, I post daily and for me it's when nineteen percent of my business comes from. So, no matter how busy I am, and I know I work from home now, my entire team is remote, but no matter where I would be, I will always invest the time into linkedin because I get a return out of it and therefore, for me it's a no brainer to spend an hour a day post in the video, commenting, interacting, engaging, responding to messages, comments, whatever that is because of the enormous value that I get out of that platform. But that's only because I've been investing in it for twelve months. In the first three months I had no real tangible value other than the fact that people were now starting to learn about catalyst...

...and people will starting to understand the approach that I take, the unique approach that we take with demand generation. But in that first three months we didn't have a client that referenced linked in as a way that they found out about catalyst. Now Ninety percent of inbout requests mentioned linkedin or tick tock from the videos that we're producing. So again, if you're looking at starting investing in Linkedin, definitely it's like any marketing. It's a long term Lens that you have to view it through and for me it's really a nine months investment or where you're really going to start seeing any kind of a tangent will are a wife or the effort that you put into it. So if you're not willing to do for I onnes I would just not bother and just save the time and really focus on all the components of your day today, right now. But if you are willing to do that, now still a phenomenal time to be able to invest into the platform. There are still a tone of benefits from being able to network and find like minded individuals and for those that have success, it's worth putting the time into and I don't think we're going to see those have a strong Roy from linkedin stopping investing in the platform many time soon. I totally agree with you and I think one of the things to point out with Linkedin is that only will less than five percent of the people on linkedin actually create content or engage and things like comment. So I personally I think there's lots of runway left and, as you say, it's it's it is a long term investment and you do have to be consistent in terms of the value that you're adding and you're engagement with the platform. One of the things I wanted to talk to you about is the idea of attribution. As someone who's more on the brand side of the house, data has been one of these things where I've looked at and said, man, people there's an overreliance on data, on metrics, on Kpis, on North Star goals and all the Geeky data stuff that people talk about. In a lot of companies they're marketing and sales has been driven by data. But we're injuring a stage in which attribution is becoming increasingly challenging. If you listen to someone like Chris Walker, who talks about the realities of attribution and how it really is a very difficult, volatile landscape, and to the neze heat talks about it,...

I'm interested you getting your perspective. Is the impact of dark social and dark web, where there's all these conversations happening, there's a lot of engagement happening. There's a lot of activity happening and we don't know about it as marketers. We can't see it, we can't measure it. It's invisible in many ways to us and it does make our lives more difficult than it does it doesn't. To be perfectly honest, many CEOS look at the markers and go what are you doing if you know there's a lot of things going that that that the dashboards not displaying? So what are your thoughts on a attribution and be how companies can navigate this dark web, dark social world? Yeah, I think with attribution is getting more and more difficult. You like you mentioned everything with tracking is becoming more and more difficult. It's very easy to ultimately find attribution with its amount capture channel. It's, you know, usually last click, conversion, Google adds, put it into hub spot. It's very simple to have that kind of attribution. When you look at really the dark social components, and for those that aren't really aware of what doc social is, basically that refers to the fact that I post on Linkedin, I post a video on there and you take that video and you text that to a friend. That's a CEO of a company that I have no idea how to track that. That CEO then refers it to somebody in there, accelerator, and then the accelerator reaches out to me and says, Hey, we'd love to talk about how you could work with our clients. There is no way for me to track that chain of events afterwards. However, it's happening on and needs. Something like ninety percent of all interactions fall into more of that dark social category rather than what you see with WHO's liking your post on Linkedin. And just to kind of double back on we talked about when you want to start investing in Linkedin, one of the I think the the most difficult things to get over is the fact that you may not have the engagement of a hundred people like you post, a thousand people like you post. We talked about, you know, Chris Walker with his content. He has hundreds of people every single day that are interacting with his content. For me, I'm lucky if I have a hundred people like a you know, like...

...a post. Fifty people, Twenty people? Is he a kind of what I'm really going for in terms of interactions? That being said, a lot of my business has come from people who have never liked to post on Linkedin who have then reached out and direct message and they referred to as more of these lurkers. And there is an enormous component of people who are consuming content on a daily basis, on content that I'm producing, that I have no idea until they reach out, and for me the best way to get through that attribution is the self reported attribution. It's something that I do with all of my clients. It's a free text entry. It can literally be one line of text. Just how did you hear about us? Don't have a drop down, don't have the ability to pick anything or multiple choice and anything like that, because people are lazy and they just pick the first one. But just ask people how they heard about you and you will be surprised at the level of detail the people will go into to be able to tell you when they requested them or they schedule a consultation with you. Hey, I saw the interview you did with Mark, I saw the podcast you did with this, I watched that video where you talked about this on Ticktock, whatever it is. You'll start to get that feedback and over time what you can start to do is build up that self reported attribution and manually attribute that to channels. So, for instance, anytime anybody is quoting a podcast, I can attribute that to podcasting or linked in or tick tock videos, whatever that channel is. You can start to attribute where the opportunities are coming from so over time you can start to see which channels are going to be most effective for you. And especially when you're doing demand generation at scale, if you are having getting into the CEO founders brand, if you are having you see your go on podcast and create a ton of content, it's very difficult to track that in day one as to what the return investment is and if you are a marketing you see as asking for the rlive to mind generation after fourteen days you have a very steep hill to climb on the education of why you're investing in marketing. That the way that you do so in that respect, start looking at implement that self reported attribution so you can start to see which channels are ultimately creating the most opportunities. Love the term Linkedin lurkers because there's...

...an awful lot of them out there, and the one thing I will say about Linkedin is that, and this is my personal viewpoint is that impressions and likes and comments are important, but they're not the be all and end all. In one of the things you have to focus on when it comes to linkedin content is who's engaging with your content. Are Your ICEPS? Are The people who actually buy your software or your hardware? Those are the ones you want. So even if your audience is really small, even if your post don't generate a lot of traction, as long as you're reaching the right people with the right content, then you're you're on the right path. And one of the things I will hit is I'll hit the analytics button when I'm in Linkedin and I'm looking for, in my case and probably in your case, to founders, co founders, CEOS, the head of marketing, the head of revenue and those if those people are engaging with my content, then I'm good to go. One final question as we head into the final the second half of two thousand and twenty two. What is the marketing landscape look like? How do you envision our world, given that we're heading into summer, a lot of people are taking vacation, people are stepping back at the same time in terms of their marketing spend there's a lot. I think there's a big reset or a big rethink happening because a lot of companies are trying to figure out and there's a lot of uncertainty, how do we move forward? How do we move forward in the most efficient, smartest way? And I think there's going to take some time for people to actually figure out what the new path is. And how do you envision the marketing landscape unfolding over the last half of two thousand and twenty two and early two thousand and twenty three? Yeah, I think the the marketing landscape for the remaining of two thousand and twenty two is rocky, to be general with it. It's extremely rocky. There's a lot of uncertainty with what's going to happen with budgets. I think there's a lot of I mean we've already seen tremendous amounts of layoffs at the moment with, you know, companies that just simply have overindulged on the size of the team that they need and then now having a market as unfortunately, around large percentage of those that are being laid off. That being said,...

...with any kind of uncertainty, there is also a huge opportunity if you're able to implement a campaign in the correct way and it with the correct strategy, and if you are looking at testing. Now is a key opportunity to test because the competition is going to be down, the cost of entry, the barriers to entry is going to be less and knowing that you're potentially entering this phase where buying cycles are going to be longer, in the fact that people may not be purchasing software is frequently people may be holding off on making any buying decisions for at least again nine to twelve months. There is a great opportunity to invest into demand generation today, whether that's something that you do and you already have set up and you want to continually invest and increase the amount that you're spending, or if it's the ability to actually start testing that right now. In terms of platforms, Linkedin is still tremendous opportunity for any paid B to b. There is just the ability to invest into targeting the right demographics on Linkedin is fast superior than any other channel right now. But in terms of organic tick Tock has been, for the last six to twelve months, a great opportunity of how you can test organic content, video content, at a high frequency with a very low baryus entry with that as well, and it's something that I'm working with a lot of my clients has. Let's test this for six months. I personally invest in Tick Tock I you know, I'm publishing content on there two or three times a day with these short form videos and then repurposing that back to linkedin. From a strategy standpoint, if you have the capacity to test right now, linkedin could be a phenomenal opportunity for you, as a CEO or a founder or leadership position, to be able to create that thought leadership and that domain authority by investing into linkedin today, which in nine months time will put me in a very strong position to continue to scale. This has been a fascinating conversation and thank you for all the insight into demand Jin Linkedin, ticktock and all things marketing. Where can people learn about you and catalyst? Yeah, best play. So that about me is linkedin and ticktock. Honestly, you know Chris Roach on...

...both of those for catalyst. If you want ahead to our website, it's cataalist consulting dot services and I'm sure you can put kind of links to all of those around the podcast as well. If you are interested in learning more about working with those or you know more of a strategy, call you know. Feel free to book a call on the website and we'll have either myself or someone my team be able to run through with you what potential opportunities could be awesome. Well, thanks again for a peer on the podcast and thanks for everyone for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe by a apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP and, of course, share of by social media. To learn more about how I help PBS as companies as a fractional CMOS which you conduiser and coach, send an email to mark at Mark Evans dots a or connect with me on Linkedin. I'll talk to you soon.

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