To Gate or Ungate Content, That is the [Marketing] Question

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

To gate or not to gate, that is the question.

Should prospects cough up an email address to access content?

It’s a question that I’ve asked many marketers in recent months.

And most of them believe that gated content is disappearing.

In theory, gated content is a great way to attract MQLs and justifying/quantifying marketing investments.

In practice, however, getting email addresses is increasingly challenging.

On the Marketing Spark podcast, Jonathan Bland suggests that marketers need to look at content differently.

Rather than it being about email farming, the focus should be brand awareness and funnel development.

“It’s about getting maximum reach,” Jonathan says.

The decision to un-gate can be a difficult pill to swallow but the digital marketing landscape has changed.

There’s so much good content that a company simply can’t afford to create a barrier or friction.

Hey It's Mark Evans and you'relistening to marketing park, one of the best things about like did as howpeople are willing to respectfully disagree with you. It's a place for a constructorcriticism and insightful conversation. A few weeks ago, I published a post onthe merits of gated Fer, some ungated content and the benefits of BB SAScompanies looking to drive brand awareness of leaks, a comment that caught my attention camefrom Jonathan Bland from Omni lab consulting, not only offered up his thoughts aboutdating content, but suggested that we connect to discuss it, and so here weare welcome to the podcast down of them. Awesome thanks for having me so, let'sdig into ungated versus gated content. From my perspective, I'm on the fenceon one hand, I see the value of gate content by companies operated in amarket with a few hundred potential customers. You want to connect withthose people you want to know who they are. On the other hand, I see ungatedcontent as having a value for companies looking to dry brand awareness inhighly competitive spaces. Now that's my view of the world. How do you see it?Because I think we are coming from it from different perspectives and thereason why I want to do on the podcast? One of the reasons is that you've got adifferent take on things and I'm really curious for us to get into it. So Ithink we've been back up for a second and actually talk about why peoplestarted gating in the first place and why it even exists and in the bigreason that people have started gating where we're gating. You know years ago,ten fifteen years ago is because there was an easy access to third party data,where you could literally just look up with filters and Fermorali criteria andsay hey. I need a couple of emails for these people and I'm going to go afterthem there there, but there weren't data providers like that they werereally good, so people needed to capture someone's email address inorder to go after and contact them that and then fast forward. A little bit andnow hub spots, kind of becomes the behemoth that it is and they've beenmarketing. The idea of doing email nurtures and taking an emails andcalling them inkwells and running them through a waterfall of sending thepersonalized content, etc. So, in order to feed that beast, you need moreemails so that that sparks the reason more to have gated content running sothat you can again run those plays of which again feeds more into hub spotsmodel, which of course, is to sell you more of the marketing contacts that are intheir systems, one of the variables they use for charging turgin you whatthey charge. So I think that those are two things to keep in mind. I think the the reality what's happening now,though, is that people don't need to pay money, and especially the pricethat they're paying for an email off a gated piece of content. They don'tbecause they can go out and get that same email address from a third partydata provider and, frankly, with almost the same intent, because I would arguethat, on linked in and Facebook, most of those people that are actuallydownloading your top of funnel content, they don't have a lot of intent.There's a little bit, certainly there's maybe some interest in the contentyou're looking at, but these are people that, like reading and consuming thatcontent, so so there's a big big issue there. That I see the other is that youknow kind of talking about why people gate is. They need attribution in thechannel itself, so you look at Linkedin and facebook, their low intent channels.People are generally not looking to buy right now, they're looking to beeducating looking to engage with friends, family co workers, whoeverright they're, not looking necessarily to buy right now so again, most of the C Mos, most of the VPS ofmarketing least that were working with, are running it because they want tomake sure that they can hit some type of an MQ number and say that hey. Wecan justify the ads, spend on Linkedin and on facebook and say hey the tenthousand dollars that we spent on linked in. That was worth somethingright, because we got x amount of leads out of it and the cost per lead was x,and that means the unit economics that we were trying to hit earlier.

But the issue with all of that that Ihave is that all of these you know are really. I guess, maybe where I shouldgo, is where they should be. Thinking about these channels is using theminstead, not to capture an email address that has very low in tent,where they're paying an exorbitant amount of money on. They should insteadbe opening up that content getting maximum reach on it, trying to use asmuch of the content that they're trying to send that person to and get thatinto the actual, add itself. So then, consumit because again you're lookingat one percent, maybe higher if you've got a really good engagement on an adninety nine percent, roughly of those people, are not going to click andfollow through and get off the platform, so making sure that you can get as muchof that content in that ad and educate them there so that, ultimately, in thelonger term, as they start seeing more content, whether that's productmarketing events, webinars content, blogs, case studies, all of thesethings that we can distribute. Ultimately what you want is have themcome back into your cycle when they're actually ready to buy versus throwinggthem into a funnel and saying all right. Now I have your email now. What I'mgoing to do is throw you in this linear journey, where you're going to first gohere, then you're going to go here and then you're going to go there, which weall know that just doesn't happen. We don't buy. That way, I mean. Have youever bought a product where, literally you like? Oh God, thank God. I got thatnumber three email and got that little piece of content. Now, I'm really. Ireally want to move forward. It's like no, that's not what's happening here.So so those are, I guess so. My initial thoughts on it there's a lot, a lot ofthings to say about gated again, not necessarily always a bad idea, and thatin fact one thing to say that's a little bit counter Tut of here to whatI'm just saying is sometimes will actually run gated in order to get databack about what the conversion rates are after you actually collect allthose emails so for for early stage, companies that are like Oh they've readthe Ubsa they want to get into it. You know we're looking at all right. Well,if you haven't run it before and you're really curious and you're really justmotivated to do this, let's go ahead and run it, but then let's go ahead andlook at what the conversion rats are after we've run that campaign. So we'lllook at three six months and twelve months out of Hay for the emails thatwe actually collected from that gaited book of that GITE piece of content,whatever it may be, how any of those actually converted, but we see, is at avery small amount convert we're talking. You know one percent, so one out of athousand are converting off of that e book, whereas you can be much moreeffective when you're, actually driving people to a higher and tent type ofconversion, which is people that are actually raising their hand, want totalk to sales, etcetera and then get them into a motion. There and you'llobviously see conversion rates a lot different, so anyway stop there. Thoseare some of my thoughts. I guess initially that's a lot of thoughts init. You go in in one answer, but let's unpack there's a lot to an pack hereyeah. I guess the question that a lot of marketers are asking is whethergated content is dead, whether it no longer makes sense to secure an email,because there's not a lot of value there and, as you say, a lot of it haslow and tent activity and of whether it's better and a friend of mine, SteveWatt, who's, a very well known, be to be SASS. Marketer suggest that it'sbetter to get it out there to drive as much distribution as you can, so thatyou get into the buyers universe. They start thinking about you. Theyrecognize hey. This is really great content and then you can hit them fromdifferent sides of the marketing equation. I mean there are situations,of course, where you do want to experiment with gated content, but forthe most part I think what you're suggesting is that it really isn't aviable marketing tactic anymore, particularly because there's so muchungated content out there yeah I mean, I guess, there's there's two things one.You haven't done it before, so you don't have date on how effective it is,and you're really curious to understand what this conversion rats look like.The other is you're already doing it today, you're doing a ton of gatedcontent, and if your measure success was journall for those that are doing alot of gated content a lot of times. The measure success is in Kells, it'sthe number of conversions you're getting off of that spend. So for thosewe need to be very careful, you don't...

...just pull dated down and say: Well it'sjust that easy. Let's just UNGATTA I mean if it was that easy, everyonewould have already ungated everything already. The reality, though, is youjust again have to come back to how ar marketers being measured, which Italked about a lot on Linton and the measurement is very critical, and ifthe measurement today for a VP of marketing is a number of inkwells andan ml for them is a download than getting them away from gatedimmediately would be a bad idea. We need to first initially figure out waysto move away from that. In a slower manner, so they can still hit someother short term goals and then figure out. How do we find a new measurementof success for them, because, ultimately, the CEO is going to comeback and some points say: Hey where's, the pipe line and where's the revenuethat we're getting from marketing while marketing still saying hey, listen,like you know, we're measured on leads. That's what you told us to do so,there's constantly this back and forth. So I think there are two little Dolecaveats for thinking about just going away from Dati completely and when youshould do it, you mentioned you one of the problems in marking right now inModern Day marketing is this friction between marketing and the CEO and that they don't opoteoperate in partnership and Collaborative Partnerships? It's almostlike they're opposing forces and that's one of the reasons why marketers are UNunder the gun and one of the reasons why marketers, the tenure of of the CMo continues to shrink, because there's so much pressure on marketers toperform and you're right. They do. It depend a lot on Mq LS which, as you say,are very low in tent and there there's simply an expression of interest morethan anything else. Well, I just I just I just interrupt you. What for one?Second, to clarify what I just said there mq depends on how you define it.Them right depends on need to find it. Someone might define an Mq as a higherintent lead that is actually come in via deme request, so that's alsopossible, so just want to clear right that for the audience yet there weredifferent ways of slice and dice about a lot of mls are just somebody who's atmost curious, but marketers need attribution to need to justify I'mspending this much money, you're, paying me this much money exact, sothey need some tangible metrics, and I think that's part of the problem rightnow is that how you measure marketing is becoming increasingly difficult.Chris Walker talks about the dark weapon we're going to get into it andthe fact that attributions is increasingly challenging. So, as amarketer like, what do you do right now in terms of trying to quantify yoursuccess, it comes back to looking things at anaggregate. You've got to get away from the channel and looking at how eachchannels individually, performing and saying when I go in a linked in herfacebook, I don't necessarily need to see a billion leads in Linkedin andfacebook. What I need to do is I need to look at my overall aggregatemarketing engine, and what I want to see is- and this is what we look atacross all the BBC companies work with. We first look at how many high intentleads. Are we driving to the company? hiantem leads for US mean people thatare coming in looking to talk to sales, I could be contact us would be a live,chatiron be dimmer class rights. It's the first thing we're looking for. Idon't necessarily care what channel they came from right. I don't care. Mypoint is before that. I'm just saying if I've got an audience, it's on linkedon I've got an audience it's on facebook. If I've got an audience, it'sson o read it wherever that audience is. I want to make sure that I havemessaging in front of them. That's not only making them aware of my brand buteducating on them how we can help solve a problem, pain or a want or desire,something that they are looking for, and I want to make sure I have thatmessage in front of them. So, first of all, we're literally looking at thatfor the aggagite right, then we're saying all right overall, are wedriving more marketing source pipeline to the business and marking sportspipeline? For me is again you know you're tagging, that person that camein as looking to talk to sales did that person ultimately convert to pipe lineand we're saying conversion rates. When you look at this, you know wards ofthirty to sixty five percent on lead to opportunity when you classify it as ahigh intent, lead someone coming in to wanting to talk to sales and then thelast is of course, marking sparse...

...revenue. So really those are the threeand then there's some Tursey things around it. Like a CD growth is salecycle, decreasing was our cat payback look like things of that nature to makesure that we're obviously justifying what's going on, but that's what we'relooking for- and I have these conversations all the time and frankly,just the other day talking about it, and everyone is panicking, like Oh, myGod, where the leads out of link in where the leads and we're not gainingany content. We get very little leads off of Linden directly attributed gointo the channel. It would look like it's a train wreck spending, thousandsof dollars wor the leads. However, we know that our audience is there. Weknow that the engagement is very high right. We can see that time on pagedownrite, lell C, tris very high. We know there's a good engagement with thecontent. We know that, as we continue to spend more money, we're starting todrive more hyenies to the to the brand. So so these are the things at at leastthat I look at. I again try to keep things very simple. I think marketinghas gotten so complex were always constantly creating new acronyms. It'snone of it's necessary. We just really need to kind of bring it back to thebasics and realize like ultimately, what are the numbers we're trying toGoe forward and by the way, those numbers of the same assails right Imean sales were aligned with the same pipeline number and yes, I do like tosplit the fun on understand: Hey what is marketing bring versus sales,because ultimately, marketing should bring the lion share of the pipelinetwo sales. Overall, I want to see that trend. That's another thing we look atas well. What is the percent of marketing sorts pipeline that werebringing as a compares to the whole? I stop myself there, but there are acouple of things I look at and they'll get too lost in looking channel bychannel. I love the idea of of simplicity versus complexity and thefact that you know we often lose sight of the fundamentals because, asmarketers were fascinated with metric kpis and all the tools at our disposal, one of the biggest challenges formarketers these days is attribution and we've touched upon it a little earlierand the fact that it is increasingly difficult to correlate what you do toand results and there's this whole notion of the dark Weben. It's thingsthat we have known before, like we have known, for example, that a prospect isseventy percent down the pipeline according to Gartner, before the eventouch a company before they even contacted company, so they've alreadydone their due dilee in research and that's a different type of relationship.There's a lot of recommendations going on people checking out G to and capterpeople sourcing, as you say, looking at content on Linkedin. So there's allthis marketing activity going on in consumption going on and we don't seeany of it so as a marketer trying to justify what you're doing tactically andstrategically and trying to say to your boss. Listen we're doing a good job you.How do you deal with the dark web like? How do you recognize that there's a lot going on,and how do you get any kind of insight into it? So you can adjust what you'redoing from a strategic and tactical perspective. Yeah. It's a greatquestion. I think the first thing you need to do is before you startinvesting heavily in these dark web areas. These are communities POCASTS, you name it. I mean all of thesedifferent things that all these different places, if you can be beforeyou do that, you need to be able to hit your short term goals before you caneven get the support. Dexo go after some of those longer term initiatives,podcast isn't something that you're just going to start a month later, allof a sudden leads are raining in. You can't set the expectations with yourclelie that so, first of all, it's meeting initial pipeline goals andthose can be done by the way without making large investments in the darkweb before. But as you as you get past that, and asyou start, you know to be able to hit some of those initial goals on theshort term perspective, then it's about saying all right which of thosechannels do we really feel like are worth investing more time in and youGobio have to pick right in, especially if you're a roly stage company, youcan't be on all channels doing all things, but again with a very smallteam, you should be able to do a very good job of least doing a kind ofbaseline podcast, getting some organic content out on Linkedin, getting alittle bit more active in some communities where your audience ishanging out and then the Atri on the attribution front. The way that youthink about it there is, you can put...

...number one a form on your website thatjust says how did you hear about us and make it require it? That's one way youcan hear about it in the sales co sales calls when you're recording, withhopefully gong, or course or whatever, to use to record those calls. You canhear what people are saying and how they're hearing you about it and trainyour sells trips to ask. You can see it in the engagement and the likes and thecomments and what people are saying so that you can say hey is this content?Actually resonating people actually engaged with this? In fact, I mean it'sone of the ways that honestly on me lab is grown to where it is. We don't doany outbound at all. We do I mean literally everything that we do is justthrough linked en and it's just writing content and trying to be helpful,educate people. Can I put the audience etcetera and that's it and and the waythat I jump success is I hear people talk about it when they call me up, andthey say you know, I don't even have to ask kind of here, but he's like. Oh myGod, I love your content like the Post that you had the other day said.Bolabola was really interesting and made me think about this XYZ or hey. Wereally align on what you just said there and those are my signals to beable to say. I know this is working right because I'm getting thequalitative signals. Maybe I don't have it in a nice perfect report, Lingtonhasn't spit out an organic report. That said, you got x amount of leads andthat generated this amount of pipe plane and revenue, but I know- and Ijust know because I'm hearing it- I feel it so when it's working and it'sgoing well you're not going to need data you're not going to need data inthe form of a quantitative, like attribution report to say it's tied tothe specific account is what I mean: businesses like ours and re artily,Boutique businesses, I think we're living in breathing the power of Linkin.Every day. Like you, I produce a lot of content. A lot of the leads that I getand I do get a lot of leads from Lindon are people who have never engaged withme. I never see their comments. I never see their likes, they're invisible likethey are dark. The fact of the matter is it's almost like, like a test like alaboratory for what kind of marketing works these days and the fact thatpeople are reading content and they are looking at comments and after a while,it starts to resonate and you become a resource that he that they trust and Ithink that's really really interesting. One of the things that I'm curiousabout is when your Fast Green Company and you look at themarketing mix. As you say, you can't be all things to all people. You cannot beeverywhere given what's happening in the dark web, given what you can andcan't attribute. How do you create the right marketing mix? How do you knowthat you're actually doing the right things at the right time within thedark web, specifically you're talking about overall, including the dark web,because some of the stuff you can see you can see? If I do this this thishappens and some of it you can't see. So how do you know you're putting yourpulling the right levers? Well, I mean the basic mix. I mean in terms of likewhat we see across all the different companies we work with. Is You knowit's a combination of usually search linked on facebook, a podcast andorganic content on usually linked in sometimes other platforms. Buttypically those are that's. That's the mix right initially, when we startworking with a lot of these brands, and even some today, honestly, a lot ofthem have probably seventy to eighty percent of their budget on search they're. All thinking about how do wecapture right now and convert those people on the leads and will search isa very important channel. I was actually just talking about this today.The point is: Is that you need to start leveraging more and getting ahead ofthe demand being the person where they're, actually figuring out andfinding your brand, which is in social channels, which is in communities whichis talking to friends and doing those other things and re, allocating yourbudget so immediately. What I think about- and this is not a hard rule- butyou know I'm Jully, looking at forty, forty to fifty percent of the budget,potentially on search the other half across dark web channels, the other half run paid social,anything that related to social media, because that's again where people arefiguring out about your brand, where they're finding hearing about who youare or what you do, what you can offer from whether it's a product marketperspective events, I mean you name it whatever type of content you want tothrow across it. So I think that's...

...initially the mix that were typicallydeploying in the way that I think about it. But old TIMILA comes back to are wehitting our initial short term goals and some of the key channels where wecan potentially track things a little bit better, because a lot of people arenervous at first, if you're in that position, others, you know you're,potentially a lot more calm and censured, and you know that youunderstand marketing. You understand that these things do take time andyou're not going to be able to attribute everything and for thosecompanies some of the ones that we talk to they're a blank slate, which isgreat. We can build out a whole new plan for them and get them immediatelyengaged where their audience is, whether that's organically. On podcast,you name it etcetera. But again, you know. Just comes back to you know,figuring out how many resources do I have to pull out. You know, put outsome great content and again with the great thing about a podcast. Is thatyou've got the video you've got the audio you can repurpose it you can youcan subtitle it? You can put it out into blogospheres of what you can dowith the podcast to really stretch that content. So you think about theinvestment in a podcast is not really massive for people, if you think aboutjust that one piece of content, so so that's generally how we think about it.Let's Talk Tactical Execution and I'm glad you mentioned the idea of apodcast because, with many of my clients, I'm an advocate for podcasting,I jumped on the bandwagon just over a year ago and the benefits have beenthere's so many benefits to podcasting James Carbury of sweet fish mediasuggest that it won't be long before every Btbai needs a podcast. Just likeevery bt SAS company has a blog. Is that the reality that you're seeing ispodcasting so attractive that there's it's a no brainer to launch one? No,I'm not saying that at all. Actually, I'm still saying a very, very small fewthat have really died. I doven into building out a podcast and, frankly,what I, what what I actually see more of is: let's build a podcast to see ifwe can get a bunch of leads and then say the six tenth twelfth episode theyshut the whole thing down because it didn't generate anything right. Sotypically, that's what I'm saying: I'M NOT SAYING THAT! There's consistency instaying with it. There's people that want to try it out, but there's so muchexpectation around making sure that podcast is actually delivering on leadsand the thing about it is is again. PODCAST are very very hard to attribute.There are certainly little ways that you can do it, but at the end of theday, people are hearing your podcast. They may not be participating. They mayhave gotten the recorded version. An make out of the re purpose thing: theydidn't click, so many different holes and being able to track that. But again,you know now I'm not saying a whole lot of pdps companies that are diving inhad deep to podcasting. If they do again they stop after a few months yeah.It is interesting because I have a client who I convinced to get intopodcasting, and there have been times when the Co says where the leads, howmany downloads and I'm getting in my argument is that there are lots ofbenefits to doing the new it is. It is conversations that people are listeningto there's lots of ways that you can repurpose podcast content and reallyconnect with with prospects and customers. So I am obviously a bigadvocate. The other way they I want to ask you about is: is the benefits ofadvertising beyond clicks, because you know we spend a lot of money as B to bemarketers on advertising, and often you know, there's the correlation. If Iadvertise this much, I'm going to get this many clicks to lead to this. Manyleads in sales, but that's not always the way it works, and maybe you cantalk a little bit about that yeah. A hundred percent, exactly I mean, is,like I said before. You've got ninety nine percent of people that aregenerally not clicking on your ad. So what are they doing? They're the onesthat are scrolling past and not clicking either the content wasengaging enough were some other reasons that justdidn't prompt them to a a click because it wasn't making a connection. But thepoint is: is that what you need to do is make sure that you're? Actually,this is where I said this a little bit earlier, but make sure that what you'reputting in your ad is designed, so they could be consumed almost in entirety orat least the bulk of the message you...

...want to get across in the actual adcopy itself in the creative make sure that they can get in consume it andstay within the platform. Most people want to stay in the platform they'rescrolling through they're engaging the people they're talking people they'rereading about who said what. So they don't want to leave necessarily all thetime to go off to a landing page and then go read more about the company andconvert. So it's really important that everything, at least that we do andcreative is really important to make sure the number one we're getting mostof the message out in the copy and in the creative so that it can consumethere so that we don't have to get the click, we're getting people that areactually being impressed upon by the content and then over time we'regetting them coming back into. You know coming back into our bucketand saying, like hey yeah, I would actually like to talk to sales whenthey're ready and we're seeing that two in the forms so for we intended thecross a lot of different companies. But you know people are saying how do youhear about us they're, saying linked in they're, saying social media things ofthat nature, some variations? Obviously Dat is never perfect, but we're seeingthat, and so we know that there's Definitelya a whole lot going on pastthe click. So sometimes you can't put it in perfect marketing math right toyour point, where you say: okay, this many collects this many visits. This mecourage, versions of the website so and so forth it just it just isn't thateasy. The other are that I wanted to touch upon is Gamos recently hadsomebody on who you know all those all is all about demos, and it is the holygrail for a lot of BB companies. I mean you can frame it talk to an expertlearn more, but ultimately what you want. As conversations you want peopleto ask for a demo request because, as you said earlier, it's high intent. Sothe question is as a BB Company: How do you drive demos? How do you get peopleto actually want to talk to your sales people, because there's a lot ofreticence out there, because no one wants to be over sold, but they do wantto learn so what are best practices when it comes to driving demos?Honestly, you want to do so much marketing, actually in the front endthat they don't even really need to be sold so when they ultimately get totalking with an AE they've already been so educated and and you've removed thebarriers from a friction standpoint, you've got transparent pricing. You'vegot easy content, THAT'S NOT GATED! That's easily accessible, you've gotproduct, little short clip product videos that speak to the story and theproblem that your clients have you've got easy to understand language on yourwebsite that isn't technical or filled with jargon and acronyms. It's outcomebase it's written very simply with the fewest words possible and when you doall these things right over time, you make it so easy for the person tounderstand what you do that they come in and they already are pretty muchsold on going with you that the sales are up really is there to maybe justask a few little. You know questions make sure that they're qualified whatnot and then move them through they're already ready to go. So I think that,honestly, what I'm saying is that there's going to be a transition atsome point where the sales person is really honestly starting to change, Imean for a company is really doing awesome. Marketing the sales personalmost turns into more of like a customer success manager or someone.That's really just there to kind of be a lending hand and kind of bring themthrough to the rest of the deal, so that that's honestly, like I mean, ifmarketings being really well- and I guess getting into some of the tacticsaround that again- it's kind of like some of the things I was just sayingthere. I mean getting getting transparent pricing, ungated content, opening up productvideos, don't be in a lot of a lot of companies, hide hide their product.They don't want to put it out there. They think if they put out their demovideo that they're not going to be the grin to de Cris leads and a lot oftimes they do, but they ultimately educate people more and let them eitherqualify themselves out and learn where about the product of six sense is agreat a great example of this. They have great product vias that are veryeducational, they're, not just about the product itself, but their outcomedriven, and they help you understand what it does and what it is. You know,and I think of a lot more companies took that to hard and not worried aboutgating everything and putting lead forms behind everything and making itmore difficult for the person to buy. You would have a whole lot more peoplecoming through and that sale cycle be a lot shorter, a Yalta. You want toreduce friction, I mean the harder you make it for people to learn about yourcompany. The more difficult you make it...

...for people to understand what you doand the benefits and ultimately what's in it for them more cautious, they'regoing to be, and the more likely is that they'll go to somebody else, and Ithink that's one of the things that we have to think about is marketers. Is Wewant to make it as simple and as easy to engage with us and ultimately to buyfrom US people? People will always choose the least passive resistance,always so, if you're making it harder, then they're going to be going to yourcompetitor. As you said, that's just the way it's going to work, they'regoing to go wherever it's easier to buy and if you make it hard for them and ifyou hide information, put put put walls up, you're only you're, only shootingyourself in the foot. I got a great way to wrap things up andthanks for all the great inside Jonathan. Where can people learn moreabout you and Amy Lub? Yes, so the easiest place is find me on Linkedin,just Jonathan Bland AMMI lab. That should be able to find me- or you canget our website just on Ila consulting com and read a little bit more about usthere, but generally I'm pretty active on linked in so yeah shoot me a messageor are reach other to guys of questions in a snap shot. Maybe you can tellpeople what Ami lab does yeah, so the core of it were a demandin BB SASSagency. So we predominantly work with see the series B stage companies we runpaid media for them, so we're really, first of all kind of aligning withnumber one their pipeline and revenue goals is a big thing that we do makesure that we're understanding what's actually happening within their RM andoptimizing ad channels. Accordingly. Typically, it's facebook linked insearch really the gamut from a paid social perspective, and then obviouslywe do a whole lot of creative analytics work as well to kind of wrap everythingtogether, but again biggest thing for us that I can. I can't Harp on enough,as you know, we're not a Leggen type of agency, where an agency that old Tamaleis aligned with whatever the goal is the marketing, as which, typically forus, is people that are alive with pipe line and revenue so that we can focuson driving hiante on de Merquel through to the company, thanks for listening toanother episode of Markes Park. If you enjoyed the conversation, leavee, areview subscribe by Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast of and of course,Yoreba social media. To learn more about how I help pb souse companies asa fractal, so strategic advisor and coach and in email to mark a marketings,Bucko or connect with me on. Like a talk.

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