To Gate or Ungate Content, That is the [Marketing] Question

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

To gate or not to gate, that is the question.

Should prospects cough up an email address to access content?

It’s a question that I’ve asked many marketers in recent months.

And most of them believe that gated content is disappearing.

In theory, gated content is a great way to attract MQLs and justifying/quantifying marketing investments.

In practice, however, getting email addresses is increasingly challenging.

On the Marketing Spark podcast, Jonathan Bland suggests that marketers need to look at content differently.

Rather than it being about email farming, the focus should be brand awareness and funnel development.

“It’s about getting maximum reach,” Jonathan says.

The decision to un-gate can be a difficult pill to swallow but the digital marketing landscape has changed.

There’s so much good content that a company simply can’t afford to create a barrier or friction.

Hey, it's Mark Evans and you're listening to marketing's park. One of the best things about Linkedin is how people are willing to respectfully disagree with you. It's a place for constructor criticism and insightful conversations. A few weeks ago I published a post on the merits of gated versus ungated content and the benefits of B Tob SASS companies looking to drive brand awareness and leads. A comment that caught my attention came from Jonathan Bland from Omniq lab consulting, not only offered up his thoughts about gated content, but suggested that we connect to discuss it, and so here we are. Welcome to the PODCAST, Johnathan. Awesome. Thanks for having me. So let's dig into ungated versus gated content. From my perspective, I'm on the fence. On one hand, I see the value of gated content by companies operated in a market with a few hundred potential customers. You want to connect with those people, you want to know who they are. On the other hand, I see ungated content as having value for companies looking to drive brand awareness in highly competitive spaces. Now that's my view of the world. How do you see it? Because I think we're coming from a from different perspectives, and the reason why I want to do on the podcast, one of the reasons is that you've got a different take on things and I'm really curious for us to get into it. So I think we've the backup for a second and actually talk about why people started gating in the first place and why it even exists. And in the big reason that people have started gating where we're gating, you know, years ago to ten fifteen years ago, is because there was an easy access to third party data where you could literally just look up with filters and pharmographic criteria and say, Hey, I need a couple of emails for these people and I'm going to go after them. They're there. There weren't data providers like that that were really good, so people needed to capture someone's email address in order to go after and contact them that and then fast forward a little bit and now hub spots kind of become the behemoth that it is and they've been marketing the idea of doing email nurtures and taking an emails and calling them in q wells and running them through a waterfall of sending them personalized content, etc. So in order to feed that beast, you need more emails so that that sparks the reason more to have gated content running, so that you can again run those plays of which again feeds more into hub spots model, which, of course, is to sell you more of the marketing contacts that are in their systems, one of the variables they use for charging, charging you with the charge. So I think that those are two things to keep in mind. I think the the reality what's happening now, though, is that people don't need to pay money, and especially the price that they're paying for an email off a gated piece of content. They don't because they can go out and get that same email address from a third party data provider and, frankly, with almost the same intent. Because I would argue that on Linkedin and Facebook, most of those people that are actually downloading your top of funal content, they don't have a lot of intent. There's a little bit, certainly, there's maybe some interest in the content you're looking at, but these are people that like reading consuming that content. So so there's a big, big issue there that I see. The other is that, you know, kind of talking about why people gate is they need attribution in the channel itself. So you look at linked in and FACEBOOK, they're low intent channels. People are generally not looking to buy right now. They're looking to be educating, looking to engage with friends, family, Co workers, whoever right, they're not looking necessarily to buy right now. So again, most of the CMOS, most of the VP's of marketing least that we're working with, are running it because they want to make sure that they can hit some type of an m q well number and say that, hey, we can justify the ad spend on Linkedin and on facebook and say, Hey, the tenzero that we spent on Linkedin, that was worth something, right, because we got x amount of leads out of it and the cost per lead was x, and that meets the unit economics that we were trying to hit earlier. But the...

...issue with all of that that I have is that all of these you know, really, I guess maybe I where I should go is where they should be get thinking about these channels, is using them instead, not to capture an email address that has very low intent, where they're paying an absorbitant amount of money on. They should instead be opening up that content getting maximum reach on it, trying to use as much of the content that they're trying to send that person to and get that into the actual add itself so they consuming because again, you're looking at one percent, maybe higher, if you've got a really good engagement on an ad, ninety nine percent, roughly, of those people are not going to click and follow through and get off the platform. So making sure that you can get as much of that content in that ad and educate them there so that ultimately, in the longer term, as they start seeing more content, whether that's product marketing events, webinars, content, blogs, case studies, all of these things, that we can distribute. Ultimately what you want is have them come back into your cycle when they're actually ready to buy, versus throwing the them into a funnel and saying all right, now, I have your email. Now what I'm going to do is through you in this linear journey where you're going to first go here, then you're going to go here and then you're going to go there, which we all know that just doesn't happen. We don't buy that way. I mean, have you ever bought a product where literally they're like, Oh God, thank God I got that number three email and got that little piece of content. Now I'm really I really want to move forward. It's like now, that's not what's happening here. So those are, I guess, on my initial thoughts on it. There's a lot, a lot of things to say about gated. Again, not necessarily always a bad idea, and that, in fact, one thing to say that's a little bit counterintuitive here to what I'm just saying is sometimes will actually run gated in order to get data back about what the conversion rates are after you actually collect all those emails. So, for for early stage companies that are like, Oh, they've read the hub spot playbook, they want to get into it. You know we're looking at all right, well, if you haven't run it before and you're really curious and you're really just motivated to do this, let's go ahead and run it, but then let's go ahead and look at what the conversion rates are after we've run that campaign. So we'll look at three, six months and twelve months out of hey, for the emails that we actually collected from that gated ebook, of that gated piece of content, whatever it may be. How many of those actually converted? What we see is it a very small amount convert. We're talking one percent, so one out of a thousand are converting off of that Ebook, whereas you can be much more effective when you're actually driving people to a higher intent type of conversion, which is people that are actually raising their hand, want to talk to sales, etc. And then get them into emotion there and you'll obviously see conversion rates a lot different. So anyway, stop there. Those are so my thoughts, I guess. Initially that's a lot of thoughts in it, you know, and in one answer, but let's unpack. There's a lot to unpack here. Yep, I guess the question that a lot of marketers are asking is whether gated content is dead, whether it no longer makes sense to secure an email because there's not a lot of value there and, as you say, a lot of it has low intent activity, and whether it's better, and a friend of mine, Steve Watt, who's a very well known bbsass marketer, suggest that it's better to get it out there, to drive as much distribution as you can so that you get into the buyers universe, they start thinking about you, they recognize hey, this is really great content, and then you can hit them from different sides of the marketing equation. I mean there are situations, of course, where you do want to experiment with gated content, but for the most part I think what you're suggesting is that it really isn't a viable marketing tactic anymore, particularly because there's so much ungated content out there. Yeah, I mean I guess there's there's two things. One, you haven't done it before, so you don't have date on how effective it is and you're really curious to understand what those conversion rates look like. The other is you're already doing it today. You're doing a ton of gated content and if your measure of success was generally for those that are doing a lot of gated content, a lot of times the measured of success is in Qls, it's the number of conversions you're getting off of that spend. So for those we need to be very careful. You don't just pull gated down and...

...say, well, it's just that easy, let's just ungate everything. I mean, if it was that easy, everyone would have already ungated everything already. The reality, though, is you just again have to come back to how our marketers being measured which I talk about a lot on Linkedin, and the measurement is very critical. And if the measurement today for a VP of marketing is the number of qls and an mql for them is a download, then getting them away from gated immediately would be a bad idea. We need to first initially figure out ways to move away from that and a slower manner so they can still hit some other short term goals, and then figure out how do we find a new measurement of success for them, because ultimately the CEO is going to come back and some points say hey, where's the pipeline and where's the revenue that we're getting from marketing, while marketing still saying, Hey, listen, like you know, we're measured on leads. That's what you told us to do. So there's constantly this back and forth. So I think there's are two little, too little, caveats to thinking about just going away from gated completely and when you should do it. You mentioned one of the problems in marketing right now, in Modern Day marketing, is this friction between marketing and the CEO and that they don't opera often operate in partnership and collaborative partnerships. It's almost like they're opposing forces, and that's one of the reasons why marketers are under the gun and one of the reasons why marketers, the tenure of the CMO continues to shrink because there's so much pressure on marketers to perform. And you're right, they do bit depend a lot on Mq owls which, as you say, are very low intent and there they're simply an expression of interest more than anything else. Well, I just just I'll just interrupt you one for one second. is to clarify what I just said. there. Mql depends on how you define it, though, right, depends on I need to find it. Someone might define an MQL as a higher intan lead that is actually come in via demo request. So that's also possible. So just want to clarify that for the audience. Yet there were different ways of slice and dice about a lot of mqls are just somebody who's at most curious, but marketers need attribution and need to justify I'm spending this much money, you're paying me this much money, because so they need some tangible metrics and I think that's part of the problem right now, is that how you measure or marketing is becoming increasingly difficult. Chris Walker talks about the dark web and we're going to get into it and the fact that attributionists is increasingly challenging. So as a marketer, like what do you do right now in terms of trying to quantify your success? It comes back to looking things at an aggregate. You've got to get away from the channel and looking at how each channels individually performing and saying when I go in a linkedin or facebook, I don't necessarily need to see a billion leads in Linkedin and facebook. What I need to do is I need to look at my overall aggregate marketing engine and what I want to see is, and this is what we look at across all the bb sis companies work with, we first look at how many high intent leads are we driving to the company? High intent leads for US me and people that are coming in looking to talk to sales, that could be contact us, would be a live chat to could be dimmer request rights. It's the first thing we're looking for. I don't necessarily care what channel they came from, right I don't care. My point is before that. I'm just saying if I've got an audience, it's on Linkedin. If I've got an audience, it's on facebook. If I've got an audience and so on Reddit, wherever that audience is, I want to make sure that I have messaging in front of them that's not only making them aware of my brand but educating on them how we can help solve a problem, pain or a want or desire, something that they are looking for, and I want to make sure I have that message in front of them. So first of all, we're literally looking at that from the aggregate right, and then we're saying, all right, overall, are we driving more marketing source pipeline to the business? And Marketing source pipeline for me is again you know, you're tagging that person that came in as looking to talk to sales. Did that person ultimately convert to pipeline? And we're saying conversion rates. When you look at this, you know boards of three thousand two to sixty five percent on on lead to opportunity when you classified as a high intend lead someone coming into wanted to talk to sales. And then the last is, of course, marketing source revenue. So really those are the three and then there's some...

...tertiary things around the like ACV growths, is sales cycle decreasing? WAS OUR CAC payback look like, things of that nature, to make sure that we're obviously justifying what's going on. But that's what we're looking for. I have these conversations all the time and frankly just the other day talking about it, and everyone is panic and like, oh my God, where the leads? At a Linkedin? Where the leads? And we're not getting any content. We get very little leads off of linkedin directly attributed go into the channel. It would look like it's a train wreck. We're spending thousands of dollars. Where the leads? However, we know that our audience is there. We know that the engagement is very high. Right we can see that time on page bounce rate slow, CTR's very high. We know there's a good engagement with the content. We know that as we continue to spend more money, we're starting to drive more high intend demos to the to the brand. So so these are the things at at least that I look at. I again try to keep things very simple. I think marketing's gotten so complex. We're always constantly creating new acronyms, it's none of it's necessary. We just really need to kind of bring it back to the basics and realize like, ultimately, what are the numbers were trying to move forward? And, by the way, those numbers are the same as sales, right, I mean sales were aligned with the same pipeline. I'm over and yes, I do like to split the funnel. Understand. Hey, what is marketing bring versus sales, because ultimately marketing should bring the lion share of the pipeline to sales overall. I want to see that trend. That's another thing we look at as well. What is the percent of marketing source pipeline that we're bring is it compares to the whole based on myself there, but those are a couple of things I look at and they'll get too lost in looking channel by channel. I love the idea of simplicity versus complexity and the fact that, you know, we often lose sight of the fundamentals because as marketers, were fascinated with metrics, Kpis and all the tools that our disposal. One of the biggest challenges from marketers these days is attribution and we've touched upon it a little earlier, and the fact that it is increasingly difficult to correlate what you do to and results. And there's this whole notion of the dark web, and it's things that we have known before, like we have known, for example, that prospect is seventy percent down the pipeline, according to Gartner, before they even touch a company, before they even contact a company, so they've already done their due doots and some research. Yep, and that's a different type of relationship. There's a lot of recommendations going on, people checking out GTW and Cap Tera, people sourcing, as you say, looking at content on Linkedin. So there's all this marketing activity going on and consumption going on and we don't see any of it. And so, as a marketer, trying to justify what you're doing tactically and strategically and trying to say to your boss, listen, we're doing a good job. You know, how do you deal with the dark web, like, how do you ident recognize that there's a lot going on and how do you get any kind of insight into it so you can adjust what you're doing from a strategic and tactical perspective? Yeah, it's a great question. I think the first thing you need to do is before you start investing heavily in these dark web areas, these are communities, podcasts, you name it. I mean all of these different things that all these different places that you can be. Before you do that, you need to be able to hit your short term goals before you can even get the support extould go after some of those longer term initiatives. Podcast is and something that you're just going to start in. A month later, all of a sudden leads are raining in. You can't set the expectations with your CEO like that. So first of all it's meeting initial pipeline goals, and those can be done, by the way, without making large investments in the dark web before. But as you as you get past that and as you start, you know, to be able to hit some of those initial goals on the short term perspective, then it's about saying, all right, which of those channels do we really feel like are worth investing more time and and you got to see. You have to pick right. I mean, especially if you're early stage company, you can't be on all channels doing all things. But again, with a very small team, you should be able to do a very good job of at least doing a kind of baseline podcast, getting some organic content out on linked in, getting a little bit more active in some communities where your audience is hanging out. And then the actually on the attribution front. The way that you think about it there is you can put,...

...number one, a form on your website that just says how did you hear about us and make it require it. That's one way. You can hear about it in the sales cont sales calls when you're recording with hopefully gong or course or whatever to you use to record those calls. You can hear what people are saying and how the hearing about it and train your cells rips to ask. You can see it in the engagement and the likes, in the comments and what people are saying so that you can say, Hey, is this content actually resonating? People actually engage with this? In fact, I mean it's one of the ways that, honestly, omnilab is grown to where it is. We don't do any outdown at all. We do, I mean literally everything that we do is just through linkedin and it's just writing content and trying to be helpful educate people, connect with the audience, etc. And that's it. And and the way that I judge success is I hear people talk about it, when they call me up and they say, you know, I don't even have to ask how to hear but it's like, Oh my God, I love your content. Like the Post that you had the other day said Blah, blah, blah, blah. It was really interesting and made me think about this. XYZ, you or hey, we really align on what you just said there. And those are my signals to be able to say, I know this is working right because I'm getting the qualitative signals. Maybe I don't have it in a nice perfect report. Linkedin hasn't spit out, an organic report that said you got x amount of leads and that generated this amount of pipeline and revenue, but I know and I just know because I'm hearing it, I feel it. So when it's working and it's going well, you you're not going to need data. You're not going to need data in the form of a quantitative like attribution report to say it's tied to the specific account. Is what I mean. Business is like ours and we're are arguably boutique businesses. I think we're living in breathing the power of linkedin every day. I, like you, I produce a lot of content. A lot of the leads that I get, and I do get a lot of leads from Linkedin, are people who have never engaged with me. I never see their comments, I never see their likes. They're invisible, like they are dark the fact of the matter is it's almost like a like a test, like a laboratory for what kind of marketing works these days and the fact that people are reading content and they are looking at comments and after a while it starts to resonate and you become a resource that they that they trust, and I think that's really, really interesting. One of the things that I'm curious about is when you're fast growing company and you look at the marketing mix, as you say, you can't be all things to all people, you cannot be everywhere, given what's happening in the dark web, given what you can and can't attribute, how do you create the right marketing mix? How do you know that you're actually doing the right things at the right time within the dark web? Specifically, you're talking about overall including the dark web, because some of the stuff you can see. You can see if I do this, this, this happens in some of it you can't see. So how do you know you're putting, you're pulling the right levers? Well, I mean the basic mix. I mean in terms of like what we see across all the different companies we work with is, you know, it's a combination of usually search, linkedin facebook, a podcast, and organic content on usually linkedin sometimes of their platforms, but typically those are that's that's the X. right initially, when we start working with a lot of these brands, and even some today, honestly, a lot of them have probably seventy to eighty percent of their budget on search. They're all thinking about how do we capture right now and convert those those people into leads? And while search is a very important channel, I was actually just talking about this today, the point is is that you need to start leveraging more and getting ahead of the demand, being the person where they're actually figuring out and finding your brand, which is in social channels, which is in communities, which is talking to friends and doing those other things, and realocating your budget. So immediately, what I think about, and this is not a hard rule, but you know, I'm just really looking at forty, forty to fifty percent of the budget potentially on search, the other half across dark web channels, the other half around paid social anything that related to social media, because that's again where people are figuring out about your brand, where they're finding hearing about who you are, what you do, what you can offer from, whether it's a product, marking, perspective, events, I mean, you name it, whatever type of content you want to throw across it.

So I think that's initially the mix that were typically deploying and the way that I think about it. But ultimately it comes back to are we hitting our initial short term goals on some of the key channels where we can potentially track things a little bit better, because a lot of people are nervous at first. If you're in that position, others, you know you're potentially a lot more calm and centered and you know that a you understand marketing, you understand that these things do take time and you're not going to be able to attribute everything. And for those companies, some of the ones that we talked to, they're a blank slate, which is great. We can build out a whole new plan for them and get them immediately engaged where their audiences, whether that's organically on podcast, you name it, etc. But again, you know, it just comes back to, you know, figuring out how many resources do I have to pull out, you know, push out some great content. And again, the great thing about a podcast is that you've got the video, you've got the audio, you can repurpose it, you can, you can subtitle it, you can put it out into blog post etc. So it's extremely versatile in terms of what you can do with the podcast to really stretch that content. So you think about the investment in a podcast, is not really massive for people if you think about just that one piece of content. So so that that's generally how we think about it. Let's Talk Tactical Execution and I'm glad you mentioned the idea of a podcast because with many of my clients, I'm an advocate for podcasting. I jumped on the bandwagon just over a year ago and the benefits have been there's so many benefits to podcasting. James Carber or your sweet fish media suggest that it won't be long before every BB SASS company needs a podcast, just like every BEDB SASS company has a blog. Is that the reality that you're seeing is podcasting so attractive that there's it's a no brainer to to launch one. No, I'm not saying that at all. Actually, I'm still saying a very, very small few that have really dive, have doven into building out a podcast. And frankly, what I what I what I actually see more of, is, let's build a podcast to see if we can get a bunch of leads and then, say the six, Ten twelve episode, they shut the whole thing down because it didn't generate anything. Right. So typically, that's what I'm saying. I'm not saying that there's consistency and staying with it. There's people that want to try it out, but there's so much expectation around making sure that podcast is actually delivering on leads. And the thing about it is is again, podcasts are very, very hard to attribute. There are certainly little ways that you can do it, but at the end of the day, people are hearing your podcast, they may not be participating, they may have gotten the recorded version, the mayke out the repurpose thing. They didn't click so many different holes and being able to attrack that. But again, you know, no, I'm not seeing a whole lot of pbss companies that are diving in head deep to podcasting. If they do again, they they stop after a few months. Yeah, it is interesting because I have a client who I convinced to get into podcasting and there have been times when the CEO says where the leads, how many downloads, and I'm getting and my argument is that there are lots of benefits to doing that. You know, it is it is conversations that people are listening to. There's lots of ways that you can repurpose podcast content and really connect with with prospects and customers. So I'm obviously a big advocate. The other y they want to ask you about is is the benefits of advertising beyond clicks, because you know, we spend a lot of money, has be tob marketers on advertising and often, you know, there's the correlation. If I advertise this much, I'm going to get this many clicks to lead to this many leads and sales. But that's not always the way it works and maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Yeah, a hundred percent exactly. I mean it's like I said before, you've got ninety nine percent of people that are generally not clicking on your ad. So what are they doing? They're the ones that are scrolling past it not clicking. Either the content was engaging enough or some other reason that just didn't prompt them to actually click because it wasn't making a connection. But the point is is that what you need to do is make sure that you're actually and this is where I said this a little bit earlier, but make sure that what you're putting in your ad is designed so that could be consumed almost in entirety, or at least the bulk, of the message you want to get across in the actual add copy itself, in the...

...creative, make sure that they can get in consumer and stay within the platform. Most people want to stay in the platform. They're scrolling through, they're engaging the people, they're talking people there, reading about who said what, so they don't want to leave necessarily all the time to go off to a landing page and then go read more about the company and convert. So it's really important that everything, at least that we do and creative is really important to make sure the number one we're getting most of the message out in the copy and in the creative so that it can consume there so that we don't have to get the click. We're getting people that are actually being impressed upon by the content and then over time we're getting them coming back into coming back into our bucket and saying like hey, I would actually like to talk to sales when they're ready. And we're seeing that too in the forms. So, for we in put one of the cross a lot of different companies. But you know, people are saying, how does you hear about us? They're saying Linkedin, they're saying social media, things of that nature. Some variations. Obviously it's date is never perfect, but we're seeing that and so we know that there's definitely a whole lot going on past the click. So sometimes you can't put it in perfect marketing math right to your point where you say, okay, this many clicks, this many visits, this mancourage, versions of the website, so and so forth. It just it's just isn't that easy. The other error that I want to touch upon is demos. Recently had somebody on who you know, all those all is all about demos and it is the holy grail for a lot of bbbs ass companies. I mean you can frame it talk to an expert, learn more, but ultimately what you want a conversations. You want people to ask for a demo request because, as you said earlier, it's high intent. So the question is, as a BBSASS company, how do you drive demos? How do you get people to actually want to talk to your sales people, because there's a lot of reticence out there because no one wants to be over sold, but they do want to learn. So what our best practice is when it comes to driving demos? Honestly, you want to do so much marketing actually on the front end that they don't even really need to be sold. So when they ultimately get to talking with an a they've already been so educated and and you've removed the barriers from a friction standpoint. You've got transparent pricing, you've got easy content that's not gated, that's easily accessible. You've got product little short clip product videos that speak to the story and the problem that your clients have. You've got easy to understand and language on your website that isn't technical or filled with jargon and acronyms. It's outcome base's written very simply with the fewest words possible and when you do all these things right over time, you make it so easy for the person understand what you do that they come in and they already are pretty much sold on going with you, that the sales are up really is there to maybe just ask a few little, you know, questions, make sure that they're qualified whatnot, and then move them through. They're already ready to go. So I think that, honestly, what I'm saying is that there's going to be a transition at some point where the salesperson's really honestly starting to change. I mean, for a company that's really doing awesome marketing, the salesperson and was turns into more of like a customer success manager or someone that's really just there to kind of be a lending hand and kind of bring them through to the rest of the deal. So that that's honestly like I mean, I if marketing's being really well and I guess getting into some of the tactics around that again, it's kind of like some of the things I was just saying. They're, I mean, getting getting transparent, pricing, ungated content, opening up product videos don't be in a lot of a lot of companies hide, hide, their product. They don't want to put it out there. They think if they put out their demo video that they're not going to they're going to decrease leads, and a lot of times they do. But they ultimately educate people more and let them either qualify themselves out and learn more about the product. Six sense is a great, great example of this. They have great product videos that are very educational. They're not just about the product itself but their outcome driven and they help you understand what it does and what it is. You know, and I think of a lot more companies took that too hard and not worried about gating everything and putting lead forms behind everything and making it more difficult for the person to buy, you would have a whole lot more people coming through and that sales cycle be a lot shorter. Yeah, you ultimately you want to reduce friction. I mean, the harder you make it for people to learn about your company, the more difficult you make it for people to understand what you...

...do and the benefits and ultimately what's in it for them, more cautious that they're going to be in the more likely is that they'll go to somebody else and I think that's one of the things that we have to think about as marketers as we want to make it as simple and as easy to engage with us and ultimately to buy from us. People, people will always choose the least fastive resistance, always so if you're making it harder, then they're going to be going to your competitor, as you said. That's just the way it's going to work. They're going to go wherever it's easier to buy and if you make it hard for them and if you hide information, put put put walls up, you're only you're only shooting yourself in the foot. It's a great way to wrap things up, and thanks for all the great insight. Jonathan. Where can people learn more about you and Ami lab? Yeah, so these used place is find me on Linkedin. Just Jonathan Blend Omni lab. That should be able to find me. Or you can get our website, just omilab consultingcom and read a little bit more about us there. But generally I'm pretty active on Linkedin. So yeah, shoot me a message or reach out if you guys have questions and a snapshot. Maybe you can tell people what I'm lab does. Yeah, so the core of it where demansion, BB SASS agency. So we pronominally work with seed this series be stage companies. We run paid media for them. So we're really first of all kind of aligning with, number one, their pipeline and revenue goals. It's a big thing that we do make sure that we're understanding what's actually happening within their crm and optimizing ad channels accordingly. Typically it's facebook, linkedin search, really the gamut from a paid social perspective, and then obviously we do a whole lot of creative analytics work as well to kind of wrap everything together. But again, biggest thing for us that I can I can't Harp on enough is, you know, we're not a legion type of agency or an agency that Ultimaley is aligned with whatever the goal is the marketing has, which typically for us, is people that are aligned with pipeline and revenue so that we can focus on driving high inten and on deem request through to the company. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe via Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP and, of course, share via social media. To learn more about how I help PDBS ADS companies as a fractional CMO, strategic advisor and coach. So an email to mark. I'm marketing sparkcom or connect with me on liked it. I'll talk to you next time.

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