How to Create Compelling B2B SaaS Messaging

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

For all the focus on data, messaging (and positioning) is crucial for companies looking to connect with prospects and customers.

If you cannot talk about your product and why it matters clearly, it's like operating with one hand tied behind your back.

In this episode of Marketing Spark, Diane Wiredu talks about how to develop messaging, the deliverables (more than a document or guide) and how to quantify the success of messaging engagements.

We also talk about the difference between messaging and position

In a world teeming with TIKTOK and youtube videos, words still matter, the ability to leverage words to clearly, coherently and effectively communicate matters in a fast moving, multitasking world. In the BDB and BBB SAS landscapes, words can be used for content marketing, copyrighting, advertising, sales deck and websites, and they also play a key role in messaging, which is a focus of today's podcast. With Diane we're Redo, a messaging strategist and the founder of lion words. Welcome to marketing spark. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Let's start with a big, broad, juicy question. Given the economic landscape, which has changed or shifted years abruptly in the last month or so, what's your take and how companies are approaching marketing? What do you see as their priorities? I know you're focused on messaging. You and I are aligned on the importance of messaging. Can you give me some perspective on how you see the landscape changing? What's important, what's going to be d prioritized? As much as you can stare into your crystal ball? This is a really tough one because I do think there's a little bit of fear in the air right. There's a bit of fear, there's a bit of Um, the sense of not wanting to take a risk, wanting to kind of bet on the safe options, budgets being reduced. Um. So I do see this impacting marketing straightaway, right, because obviously people want to get results and marketing is not always about getting results. is about testing and eventually getting there and playing a bit of the long game as well. So, Um, yeah, I mean I'm not really sure on how priorities are changing across the board, but I do know, and obviously, from my perspective, slight bias, but Um, the companies who are really going to ride this, you knowmic downturn out are those who do play the long term game and who play the long game and focus on those big strategic questions around positioning, messaging. Have you nailed those? Because you know, we we can, we tend to forget we're talking about the economic landscape, but really the whole landscape is a lot of noise, right. So you know, even in any coming economic downturn, you're still fighting, right, you're fighting against all of the noise out there. Um, and the way to really cut through that noise is by having really targeted uh positioning, knowing your audience, cutting through with messaging and kind of rising to the top. So I do see I don't know if everyone will prioritize that. I think some companies will actually the prioritize messaging, because those are the ones who are going to get it wrong. But the companies that will kind of read this out and and come out on top are those that. Before we dive into a favorite topic, and that of yours and mind, which is which is messaging.

I did want to get your thoughts on some of the panic that we're seeing in the marketplace. Companies are hitting the brakes hard when it comes to marketing and a lot of marketers and marketing consultants think that the world is gonna end. And it's the same thing that happened two years ago when covid emerged. Is that company's the gut reaction. The easy thing to do is to cut back on marketing and to cut back on marketers. Are you surprised that you're seeing panic in the marketplace right now or a lot of trepidation? I mean, I think it's normal. It's normal to to panic but it's what do you do after that? Right? I feel like panic is this instinctive reaction, and so when you see charts going down, well, obviously it starts to get reaction, to to to panic and to make kind of rush decisions. And that's where Um strategic think is um CEOS who get to marketing. That's where, that's where that kind of really comes into into play. You know, there's this kind of ongoing conversation and the Internet world of like you want to work for a CEO who gets marketing, and that's never been more important than it is now, because those who have a strategic vision and really understand the core role of marketing within a company won't make those rusties and and make huge budget cuts because they'll realize that this is how they're actually going to get through, Um, this downturn. So Um, yeah, I mean for for for consultants, Um that. I think the landscape is a little bit different for then for employees. Employees it's a lot tougher, like it's a lot tougher to change your situation. Um, but those companies that are invested in people and growing the company, I think we'll see we'll see less drastic measures. Okay, so let's dive into messaging. But before we do that, before we get into the nitty gritty of messaging and how to do it, can you define messaging, because a lot of people hear the term messaging, and positioning for that matter, and they don't really know what it means because it can be applied in lots of different ways. So let's start with marketing one on one. How do you define messaging? Yeah, and it's a great place to start. It's really important. So messaging, for me, it's what you say about your product or your service or your solution. That's it, in a nutshell and one sentence. Messaging is what you say. Um. Many people confuse messaging with copyrighting, right. So I think that's the big elephant in the room, that a lot of the time people are talking about messaging and really they're talking about the copy and the words on the page. But copyrighting is then how you say that messaging, how you say that message. So that's the way that I look at it. Really simply, messaging is what you say in the copywrighting is kind of how you stay Um. So messaging, you know, is really the foundation for strong, effective copyrighting and messaging is really based on, and informed by, your positioning, your unique positioning in the market. It's informed by your mission as a company, who you stand for, what you do, what...

...you're all about, your value. So, Um, you know the way that I approach messaging. It's it's identifying, putting out the most psent, cool things, the key things about your product that people need to know about and why that matters to the audience. Great Answer. Another question for you from a basics point of view. What's the difference between messaging and positioning? Because a lot of the times they get they people think they're the same. In simple terms, how are they different? Yeah, that's a great point, and I know you're the you're the positioning expert, right, so you should also be answering this and you're gonna be judging me hard on this one. So so, for me, the way that I the way that I look at things is if we imagine this kind of a triangle right at the base and we have copy on the top, below this we have messaging and below this we have positioning and then below this we right at the bottom, we have like the whole business strategy. So everything kind of sits on top of each other. So that's the way that I look at it. For me, because you know, when I come in and help companies with messaging, I can't help them get it right if they don't have a clue about their positioning. And the way that I break down positioning is what do you do? Who for? You know what, which little which little corner of the market, which group of people, Um, do you help and you dedicated to right? So it's really about your positioning, your unique positioning in the market. How where you sit and why anyone should care about you, what you can own, Um. So that that's the way that I look at it. I know there's another clean and crisp definition, because I don't know a dictionary definition of positioning, Um, but I know that it informs all of the work that I do. And if you don't have any clarity on who your customers are, why you're different than everybody else, than than the work that we do around your messaging, is really hard. You and I are aligned in many, many ways, and I will note that when I start working with new clients I always are with positioning because, no matter how good they think they're, positioning is there's two things that happened. One is that they've got a very biased view of the world. You know, they they operate in the either hurricane, so sometimes they lack perspective. And the second thing, when it comes to positioning and messaging for that matter, is that the market changes, economic landscape changes, consumers interest changed, the competitive landscape changes and that positioning and messaging constantly have to be updated. They're very fluid, damic creatures and it's not one of these things where you you know you said it and forget it. You're always looking at your positioning, exploring it and figuring out whether it's still relevant. So that's the one thing I did want to point out. Yeah, definitely, I'M gonna I want to throw this back to you. How do you define positioning? That's a great question and thank you for putting me on the spot. I gave the long I gave the long winded answer and my answer for messaging was like shortened snaff because I talk about it all the time. So I'd love to know,...

...because I know you do a lot more work on positioning than I do. So how do you define it? If I had to boil down positioning to its essence, it really comes down to what do you do? Who Do you serve? Why? What you do matters to the people that you serve. So what are the benefits? You know, why do they care? And the last one is how are you unique or different? Those are the four pillars and the one thing I will emphasize when it comes to positioning is that your uniqueness, how you differentiate yourself, doesn't have to be a major thing. It can be very, very small. But if that small thing matters to the people that matter to you and it's important to them, then you can separate yourself from your competitors simply by being slightly different. And a lot of companies struggle with positioning and messaging because they think that it has to be something dramatic. That's why a lot of companies embrace category creation because they believe that that's the way that they stand up from the crowd, and it's very tough to do that. But if you can outflank the competition in a small way, then you've got positioning that can be very, very effective. So that's my definition of positioning. How do you think that? Yeah, I love that. I love it and I love the point you've made about Um differentiation not having to be huge is incredibly important and this feeds into your messaging as well. And it it's so funny because I was having this conversation an ur ago with another marketer or CMO. We were talking about this idea of like radical, radical point of view, radical differentiation, as well as a kind of a topic and a concept, is huge, and you know, I said you don't. It does not. Your differentiation doesn't have to be radical. What it does have to be is relevant, and that comes down to, again, knowing what you do and who for knowing your customers inside and out, because if what you do is super relevant to me, that's enough to differentiate you from everyone else. So I love that, the test we both did. Hopefully I might steal that. Your messaging doesn't have to be radically different, it just has to be relevant. That is a great tagline. I mean, I think it's it's awesome advice for any CEO, any CMO out there. It really puts things in context. You look at what's going on right now, how do you see companies approaching positioning and messaging? My take, and I am biased because this is what I do for a living, is that position and messaging are going to become increasingly important because the rising tide is no longer going to lift all ships. For the last two years a lot of B two B A lot of B two B SAS companies have exploded in terms of their growth because there's been so much demand. Maybe their messaging hasn't been that important because everybody's doing well. But as people pull back on purchases or take longer to do them, unless you stand up from the crowd, unless you're your position and messaging is very distinct and on point, you may struggle. And I have a funny feeling I...

...know what the answer is to your question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do you how do you think companies are thinking about messaging these days? Is it? Do you see it as a priority for for some of them, all of them, many of them? Yeah. So the funny thing is there are two sides to this. There are what companies actually think and then what there is what they should think. So I don't know if I have the same answer as you or not. Um, what companies are actually doing like really varies. Um, I would be out of a job if everyone was doing this well right so there are a lot of companies out there doing it really badly. What I can say for sure, for certain, that in this current landscape, positioning and messaging is a battle, like it is a it's a huge battle. It's a fight, and I always use this analogy. Um, I think I like to use quite aggressive analogies, but I think it's important because messaging, you know, it's a fight. You're fighting against so much noise, so much noise. Now, you know, there have never in more brands and companies than there are today. I work with B two B but if you know across Um, every single industry, Um, and kind of use case. You know, in marketing tech alone, Um, according to the latest like Martek report, I think it was issued in like March this year, they are like nine thousand marketing technology tools and products on the market. Like this is nuts. You know, just email service providers, we're talking about seven plus and when you ask anyone they can name ten, twenty. Um. I've done this in in workshops and women I was before. I ask people, you know, pick a tool that all marketers use, a category, and they can only name a few and they're not, you know, putting. Let's put funding, huge funding aside, right, because obviously that's you also right to the top. But of everyone else, the ones that you know, you can name and remember, are not necessarily the best tools on the market, but they're the ones who have really prioritized on brand. Right. A brand is a huge, very like umbrella term to cover so many things. But brand nailed their positioning, shifted it many times, right. These companies either they've started pretty small, UM, they've had a strong point of view, Um, and they've shifted. They've owned their messaging, they've built a kind of either either a strong messaging framework or strong brand voice as well, because I think in B two B we're often quite scared to talk about brand voice. But this is also very important, um, and that's how they've come out on top. Um. So really I think that it's going to be a huge I mean, it already is. Let's let's be honest. It's not like it's going to be important. It already is now. Whether companies are prioritizing this or enough or not, I can't say. I'm only working with the ones who are, luckily. I want to pick up on something you said that a lot of companies struggle with terrible positioning and awful messaging, and you...

...can see it as as as B two B marketers. You look at a website, you look at copy and it's obvious that they haven't paid much attention to it. In many cases, the problem is the very product centric yeah, so my question to you is, how do you know if your messaging isn't working? What are the tell tale signs that you have a messaging problem and that you better fixed your messaging as soon as possible? Otherwise it's almost like you're you're gonna operate with one hand tied behind your back. Is that your sales and marketing won't be as effective because your message and your story isn't clear. So what are the signs that you're in Messaging Hell? Right, Matthew, you got a messaging problem. Number one title tale sign is, uh, people do not get what you do. This is seems so obvious, but you will be surprised the number of introcools, the number of leads those first conversations that I have up with founders CEOS CMOS. Let's say, man, our product is brilliant, it's awesome, but people don't get what we do. It's a really it's a critical problem like. So, coming back to the beginning of why can't you explain what it is that you do clearly and and really, you know, that's a telltale sign of a lack of clarity, right, a lack of clarity, and clarity is like the golden the Golden Staff of messaging, like the North Star. Um. Prospects being confused as well, Um, and this often comes down to too many messages. So too many messages confusing, the main thing, not being memorable and people being confused by, you know, landing on a website after ten, twenty seconds. If I shut that down and you ask me what was this product about? What did they do? Tell me something key. If you have strong messaging, core messaging pillars, things that you own, I should remember something key that. That is liventt Um and I know that you know a lot of particularly B to be feature people lead with features, feature lead and then trying to throw features down your throat and then you walk away with nothing because you don't remember anything. So trying to really Ram too many, too many messages, Um, is, you know, kind of the outcome of that, that confusion. And I mean the tell talons, telltaln signs are you know. Also, you know we're marketers. So also this trickles down to your Kpis or so not getting hitting certain Kpis is obviously or a dip in this. You know, if you're not getting the sign ups, you're not getting in the demos, you're not getting the leads, you're not getting the conversions, this is usually usually an indicative, indicative sign of something wrong with your messaging. I find it interesting, troubling fascinating that many companies struggle with messaging and positioning because it seems so simple, the idea that you should be able to explain to anybody what you do and why it matters...

...and they should immediately get what you do, get why it's relevant, even if they're not a customer. And I related to going to a cocktail party. So if you meet somebody knew at a cocktail party and you tell them and they asked what you do and you give them a very complicated up to answer filled with industry vernacular, they're gonna look at you and they're gonna probably move on. They're gonna probably say, okay, it's nice to meet you, but if you I'm not gonna this is the wrong phrase. Complete. But if you dumb it down or if you simplify it and say this is what I do, I do it for these people because this matters to them, very simple story that's relatable. Anybody can get that, anyone who can understand why it's relevant or why what you do matters. But why do companies struggle with it so much? Because it's so straightforward. It seems so obvious that you just tell a story that people can understand. Yes, so I think there are a couple of things. One, you know, you this example you just called out, Um, just explaining what you do. If you use jargon, I mean if you ask me, Diane, what do you do? There are five, ten, probably fifteen different ways that I could say this one. I could just say I'm a messaging strategist. Simple, if you know what that is, if you know what that involves, this is clear. I could talk about my audience first and I could say, Hey, well, I help you know B two, B says founders get clarity on their messaging, et Cetera, and I can talk about the outcomes and then. Or I could talk about well, I'm an agency. I can start with the product. I could say, Hey, I'm a messaging consultancy that does. There are so many different ways, and so that's also the first struggle, I think, is that often we're saying the wrong thing in the wrong way to the wrong people and we're not thinking about the audience. I can only say that I'm a messaging strategist as someone who knows what that is or in a situation where I know that they can ask me a follow up question. So I wouldn't maybe put that as the only message on a page where people don't know what that is, because all marketing is a conversation. It's just like in real life, but instead of asking the questions out loud, people are asking the questions in their head while they're reading your marketing material. So you need to answer all of these questions that people might have. So I think that's the that's the the first challenge. And then, you know, the second challenge is related to being too close, to being too close to your product, being in the trenches and things are coming really hard to understand. So I have a a phrase that I have kind of coined and I call I call this like syndrome the founder Funk right. So I work with a lot of founders and see us and heads of marketing, but they all suffer from the founder funk and that is, you know, it's when you're inside the jar. It's really hard to see the label right. So you get in this funk where you know everything inside and out but you almost know too much to just take a step back and see clearly. It's all about perspective. And so at that point, and you know not everyone, sorry, not everyone suffers from this, but at that...

...point, Um, getting an outside perspective can help in so many different ways. So that can look like a consultant, that can look like messaging testing, that can look like customer interviews and conversations. So it can take many different forms. But often to kind of step away and get away from that Funk, you have to look for outside perspective. What I find is really interesting is that when I talked to entrepreneurs and founders and CEOS and they tell me, I asked, so what do you do and they go into this very lengthy explanation and then I reflect and go well, so you do these things for these people and they go yeah, that's exactly it. I just maybe I just see the world with a different from a different angle. Why they struggle with that? I don't know. Yeah, now, because I think you've learned to simplify, because simplifying things just across the board and in life, I think it's a really it's a really strong skill and it's really difficult, something that I have struggled with, Um, but it's a it's a skill that you own over time. You know, people are I don't know if you've you've heard this concept of kind of maximizes, right, maximizes or simplifiers. Um. And people who maximize, obviously when it comes to messaging, they maximize it, they add, they want to tell everything and they really need to to simplify, and I think that that's you come in with this fresh perspective and you boil it down. Um. But people who are really passionate, close to the product, no, everything, they want to tell you everything and it's really hard to remove. But that's that's the core. If you have an entrepreneur or founder who recognizes that their messaging isn't working for whatever reason, whether it's KPI s or when they do presentations to prospects, there's a lot of confusion and a lack of clarity. How do you get started. What are the steps you need to take to refresh or develop your messaging? I mean whether you're handling this internally or with an external consultant. I always start messaging work, unsurprisingly, with a lot of research and discovery. You know, the research and discovery part is fifty, maybe seventy, of any project Um for me, and you know it's a lot of work. It's not. You can't. People always want to skip to the good part and right we walk away with this thing, but no, you're really gonna have to go back to the basics. So for me, you know how how that looks like when I'm helping companies, is starting with sit down strategy sessions and discussions. Right. So really unpack the challenges. Where are you right now? What's the struggle? What are we not clear on, because with messaging I also work on, you know, the brand elements. You know, messaging, brand, messaging and messaging, or kind of one and all. Um. So really understanding. Is Your mission still relevant? Are you still is your positioning clear? Like you said, that's one of the places that you start. But also looking again then into the...

...competitive landscape, looking at the whole ecosystem of the company understanding the product, the current marketing and where everything is and what's going wrong. And then, you know, part of that is really getting clear on the kind of story and the strategic narrative. That's one of the places that I really start right. So kind of aligning that vision. Um. And then the kind of most important part of that research and discovery phase is customer research. Um. So you know, interviewing customers, surveys, but interviews are the most important part, I would say, or the place where I get like the most relevant information. Um, customer interview surveys, mining online as well and looking really for opportunities to kind of validate your assumptions. Right, messaging work often is done internally with that kind of strategy team, but then you need to validate that and look at okay, well, what are we missing? What could we be talking about? What's resonating, what's not resonating? So those are high level of his that I can't break I can break it down further, but I think the high level that's where where companies really need to start, and a lot of that work you can do yourself with the existing team already, or you come so you can get someone in to help you. The one thing I will know from your answer is that the competitive audit, looking at the competitive landscape, is so important. I on Linkedin. I'll read post that essentially say don't worry about the competition, ignore the competition, just focus on yourself. When it comes to position and messaging, you've got to differentiate yourself you if you have messaging that is the same way as as your major competitors, then how do you stand apart? And I think it's important for us as marketing consultants to bring that perspective to the table, to show them what's going on, and then that will implements how we position the company strategically. One thing that I didn't want to ask you better, and it goes back to the fundamentals and messaging, is what are the Fund are the deliverables of messaging, because it's it's one of these sort of abstract terms and I struggle with clients when it comes to position in terms of what do I get, and sometimes they don't get a lot, but they get something that's really important. Can you walk me through the Messaging Deliverables and how you position them, given the fact that a lot of your workers around research and discovery and a small man at work, realthively smallly. Is really what you're going to give them? Walk me to that that package. Yeah, it's a it's a really it's a really important question because often these things seem fluffy but are transformative for marketing and for companies. So I can only talk about the way that I work, and I'm sure that you know people work in different ways. But that final if we start right at the end, that final deliverable for me that I deliver as a is a messaging playbook, rights, a brand messaging playbook. Um, the the actual format can depend with talking a slide or dark or whatever it is, but it's it's a document.

That really is that kind of one source of truth that contains everything that you need to create successful, effective copy and have a clear framework for your messaging. Obviously it's going to evolve, right. It's not just some deck that you put in a draw it's something that you're going to work on actively and shift. But that's that final point. Um, another really important thing, and I always said this to my clients, is we talk about deliverables, but the process in itself is a deliverable. Right, this whole process they're the most important but most intangible Um deliverable and outcome for me is just seeing that a hard moment and then clarity and an entire team being able to rally around something and finally having like a consensus around like yes, this is our strategy and now we have confidence, the confidence to go out and go ahead. Um. So I think that's a really important part too, not in the mind of this work. Um. And I'm always wary when people worry a little bit too much about the deliverable and forget that this whole process we're gonna we're gonna have, like these are hard moments along the way, and then kind of breaking down that deliverable in a more practical way. Messaging isn't a one size fits all. That final deliverable changes depending on the stage of the company that I'm working with, the product, the growth and the challenges that they've had and the work that we need to do, how kind of advanced they are as a company and how developed and the kind of work that we need to do. But I always split there deliverable into I would say, three to four key sections. One, it's always starting with who are we? Um. So that comes down to those brand fundamentals. So we will always touch on what is the mission of the company? What are those? What's the strategic vision? We'll always look at the strategic narrative and the story Um. Often I'm working with, you know, B two B stas companies who are either going through, have gone through will be fundraising. This is a really important part to understand the whole narrative and they are always changes around that, because companies still stick with the whole problem solution, but that's not a compelling narrative. So there's always a part about kind of who we are. Then there is what we do and and and how we say it. Like what we do and what we say, and that's where I touch on value propositions, right, so core value propositions and really then break down key messaging pillars. So a fundamental part of a messaging strategy for me is messaging pillars. So what are the core concepts, the themes, the core messages that you, as a company want people to remember that you can rally around Um and that kind of differentiate you from others, right, as well as kind of unique selling points. and We build out a whole messaging framework or a messaging Matrix around that Um, and then with some companies that the last piece is kind of how we sound. Um, and this is that kind of layer, layer on top, when you actually want to build out a messaging strategy and and and develop that throughout a company. Is Well, okay, if I give this to my content team, a copy team,...

...cool, but how do we actually sound? And so that we look at okay, well, what's the brand voice, and giving you some rules and some guidelines, some guidance on styles so you can actually different you take yourself on a kind of word by word level. So that's how I kind of split this and and within that it will vary. I do have to say that I love the fact that you emphasize process, because I think that exercise gets lost along the way, that companies and the people involved forget about the fact that what we're doing is trying to surface what matters to the company and what matters to a company's prospects and we're trying to in some respects, do a mindset shift and that there they have a set view of the world and and as we do the work, as we do the research, perceptions change, approaches change, biases change and I think it's important for you and I to make it clear that that is a key deliverable. Is that, if you start thinking differently, it's as important as the documentation, the words that we're going to deliver. The final question for you is, and this is this could be a hard one, is how do you quantify the success of a messaging exercise after you've done all the work, after you've built out this playbook, and hopefully what they do is your clients implemented three months later, six months later, you know, how do they quantify the work that you've done so they can say, Diane did awesome work, it's delivering our Y and we're so happy that we can recommend it to other people? What's the criteria for figuring out whether your messaging is any good and whether it's working? Yeah, this is a great question and surprisingly it's tough and I'm gonna I'm gonna feel that quantifying the success of something is is really difficult and and changes depending on each company. I think I touched on one important one that I need to mention again before we move on, and the quantifying the success starts with that Ahar moment, right. It starts with buying it starts with, you know, once we close off that project, it's because, finally, you know, this this lack of clarity, this kind of doubt, this people didn't get it, we didn't know how to say it. We had ten different ways of approaching our messaging. Now we have one clear strategy. So it starts with that. You know, external I always say external success starts with internal success. Right. So, internally, as a whole team, championing a strategy and having one Um, that's the first KPI. For me. That's the first one, and often I actually have founders and CEOS who come to me and they say that's the KPI. Like we just want to get on the same team and we want to we want to be able to to say something very clearly. So that's really important. Later on, I would say an important Um kind of KPI for success is using the feedback loops that you have within your company. So, say, if you're a very sales lad company, starting to you here Um and test messaging on...

...demos and sales calls, Um and getting kind of this feedback and getting confirmation that something resonates and cuts through Um. That's really important. And then, you know, a third way of doing this, apart from obviously noticing whatever KPI s that you had, right, if you're actually implementing this messaging on your website and then you're looking at conversions, you're looking at sign ups, all the kind of classic like Marketing Kpis, you can also then kind of implement a full kind of testing and review. So often messaging testing actually going out with a sample group, with your audience Um and and noticing the change. So if you've done some testing in the beginning with a with a sample group of people, and you know ten people didn't get your value proposition or they were on your website and had no idea what you're on about, now we go back and re review and retest and we and we check the results in comparison to where we've begun. So that's quite a kind of easy, easy way to do this. But you know, messaging is it's it's funny because the foundational thing that copied them sits on top of and so it's actually hard to quantify, but it's a very important qualitative piece. Right. So all the feedback that you get is qualitative Um and it's really easy to notice when you have strong qualitative feedback. I love the alha moment. For me that is super exciting when some of the work that you do resonates and people suddenly say that's it, that's the that's the sea change that we've been looking for at an example of the client recently is they were struggling with generic positioning and messaging, and so after going through the research and discovery process and thinking about how they could position themselves against the competition, I came up with an entirely new way of describing the company and it was like the white lights went on. It was incredible the fact that they recognized that what I was bringing to the table actually captured the essence of their product and the reason that the business exists. As consultants, they're huge. Are I and that, if, if, if the Aha mom is the only thing we deliver, then that could be in itself could be enough to justify this Discussi of a project. If people want to learn more about you and lion words, where do they go? If you want to stay up, to stay up to date with you know my musings. I talk a lot about messaging, strategy, positioning, all of that kind of stuff. On linkedin. I spay I spend way too much time on Linkedin, so feel free to follow me over there Um or you can contact me directly by heading over to my website, lion words dot com, which gives you a bit more information about how I work and the work that I do with B two B SAS companies. Well, this has been a great conversation. As you know, I'm a big fan of positioning and messaging and I love getting into the weeds when it comes to messaging and personally, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're a founder, if you're a CEO, and you're looking at some of the things that you need to focus on as you navigate through some more challenging times, it's easy...

...to look at the marketing that you're doing or not doing. It's easy to look at the people that you're that you're hiring or not hiring, but it's also important to look at the fundamentals and really take a step back and use this as a time to figure out are we on point, are we going to the market in the right way with the right story? Do we have the right plan? And I think messaging is a crucial part of that process. Well, thanks for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe via apple podcasts or your favorite podcast APP and share via social media. To learn more about how I help B TWOB SAS companies as a fractional CMO strategic advisor and coach, send an email to mark at Mark Evans Dot c a or connect with me on Linkedin. I'll caculator the chips and play Cha.

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