How to Hire the Right Marketing Consultant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hiring a marketing consultant is often a leap of faith.

You’re hoping their expertise and experience fills gaps and make things happen.

But a lot of consulting engagements don’t work as well as expected.

- There’s misalignment on expectations.

- A lack of engagement and collaboration (no partnership)

- Not enough clarity about what success looks like.

- A lack of commitment to actually do marketing (more talk than walk)

When I lost a client recently, some of these issues reared their ugly heads.

To get some more perspective, I talked to Kevin Whelan, who helps marketing consultants improve their businesses.

A key theme was how companies need to hire consultant and, as important, how and when consultants should take on clients.

Consulting is a two-way street.

Both parties need to agree to work together. It’s there’s a good fit, that’s a great start.

High. It's Mark Evans and you'relistening to marketing spark. As a marketing consultant, it's rewarding when what youdo delivers value and helps you be more successful, but sometimes engagements don't workout for variety of reasons. I recently parted ways for the client, whichwas disappointing, although not terribly surprising given the red flags that were popping up. But it got me thinking about how company should hire marking consultants and,in turn, how and why marking consultants should take on engagement with clients.In an ideal world, you're looking to create a win win proposition. Thecompany gets what they need strategically are tactically and the consultant performs and gets compensated. To get some perspective, I reached out to Kevin Whalen, a marketingconsultant who also teaches other marketing professionals how to build and run a profitable marketingadvisory practice. Welcome to marketing spark, Kevin. Thanks Mark, nice tobe here. Before we get started, I should be transparent. Kevin andI have been working together for the past year. Kevin is my business coachand he's had a huge impact on how my strategic advisory business operates. TheRoy has been tremendous. So, Kevin, I want to start with the basics. It sounds like a softball question and it is, but I thinkit sets the stage for our conversation. What is a consultant and what shoulda company expect them to do and, as important, not do compared withan employee, especially with the rise of fractional talent? Great question and there'sa lot of parts to that mark. I think ultimately, the end ofthe day, a consultants job is to help a client get from point ato point B, whatever that whatever that transition looks like. That's their firstand primary objective. But but secondarily, their job is to provide risk mitigationand to make sure that things don't fall off the rail. So anytime someonehires a consultant, the first thing I want to know is, okay,how do we not screw up what's working and how do we then also achieveour new objectives in our new goals? So really the consultant has two mainjobs, which is one to reach for the stars and they help achieve thosethings. Usually there are things that are higher risk or maybe not bet thebusiness, but potentially a shift in positioning or an expansion into, say,a new market or a new product or service line, something that is generallyinherently risky and or difficult and that they, the the company themselves, don't havea lot of experience in. So that's sort of what a consultant does, and that could even be as simple as let's build an effective marketing programjust so that we, you know, we have more structure because we arereally stressed out or disorganized or can be a number of other things depending onthe context. I think you got a second part of that question around employeesand how they sort of different from a consultant exactly. So the engagement thatI was in I felt not like I was being treated like an employee,like I was in some respects and order taker from our conversations. There's adifference between hiring a consultant and hiring and a full time employed. Maybe youcan elaborate on how you delineate and how should how should each party view eachother, given the fact that it's not a full time engagement? Yeah,I think a lot of it is just understanding sort of the definition or thethe objective of a consultant. So really, consultant isn't an employ even by legaldefinitions. You know, in consultant us to use their own tools.You can't tell them sort of exactly where it to go and when to workand how to do things. Ultimately, a consultant or any kind of acontractor needs to have some sort of autonomy to accomplish their goals and they're notjust taking orders and that kind of thing because, frankly, that's just notthe way a consultant agreement of structure. Secondly, your higher you don't hireconsultant and tell them what to do. You know, Sept typically they havemore experience on the subject in which you're being they're being hired for and ifyou're looking to just sort of hire consultant have them be a set of hands, you're better off working with a parttime...

...employee or, you know, sure, maybe some contractors are just going to follow some tasks, but ultimately they'rein the business of helping you accomplish a result. So at the end ofthe day, that's that's really important. Distinction is that you have to beready to kind of submit to their process and to sort of be bought intotheir expertise before you even work with them. And as the consultants job up frontto set those expectations that Hey, I'm going to take you on ajourney, I'm going to take in your input and we're going to go withthe best way that I know how to get you to that destination, andI need to be able to steer the ship and you need to be ableto give up the reins for a bit as we go, as we navigatethese things. Now, one of the wild cards within the consulting world thesedays is the idea the fractional executive, a fractional CMO, which is whatI do, fractional revenue officers, fractional chief financial officers. How does thatchange the dynamic and and how should companies view fractional executives and fractional leadership people? And they should view them as as consulting engagements from first and foremost.There might there might be a task component to it. You know, fractionalCMOS typically also have a bookkeeping component, but that's usually handled by someone onthe team and not usually the fractional semo of themselves. So just the sameway, or CFO in that case, just the same way. You wouldn'thave your chief marketing officer writing tweets and proof editing blog posts and choosing colorsand uploading content on a website. You nor would you have a chief fractionalchief marketing officer of fractional CMO do those kinds of tasks either. So theway you want to be approaching this is what would you know? How dowe bring someone in at a high level so that they're going to steer theship? They're not going to be the engine, they're not going to driveprojects forward, they're not going to be project managers, even necessarily. They'refacilitators. They remove role blocks. They ultimately their jobs to get a result. However, however, they can and need to be done. A lotof people in the Higher Fractional C Moo, or at least when they consider hiringone, are really thinking they need basically a part time marketing manager.So that to me, I define that as sort of a managed advisory servicesor sent of a kind of a contract marketing position, and that's just different. That's just someone to basically be a set of hands with some level ofexperience or expertise, tactical or otherwise. Yeah, I ultimately you want tobe thinking about at a higher level with a fractional CMA, which is ultimatelyan advisory role. Here's another softball question. When and why should a company highermarketing consultant? It's a question I wonder about all the time because I'malways trying to solicit companies that are looking for consulting help. But I amcurious about when can a company justify hiring a consultant versus hiring a full timeemployee? Yeah, I mean that's a really great question. Generally speaking,when you were I mean we have a lot invested. When you're spending tenplus thousand dollars a month, basically you want to manage that invested spend aseffectively as you can, and I can it to you know, if Iwere to do, say, home renovations on my house every single month therest of my life and I wasn't at really an expert on everything from paintcolors to choosing suppliers to knowing how to design a space or something, basicallyI'd be out of my depth and that would be every single month forever andever, because that's not my core competency. So when you bring in a consultanttheir jobs to be a steward of your resources and to be a stewardof your company and your goals and to help you sort of accomplish the outcomesyou're looking for through management of the resources and by removing the roadblocks necessary todo those things. Now you can hire a an employee to do that foryou. They just tend to not have the level of seniority that, tosay, a fractual SMO or a marketing advisor would have, and obviously thiswill vary on a person by person basis. Who should do your own due diligenceregardless, but that's sort of the main difference. A consultant will havea real like a rolodex of freelancers, developers, contractors, people that theycan bring into do, I execution work. They'll have worked with several different clientsand several different either in your industry or in similar or related industries,and they bring a wealth of experience that you get to have a piece of. You know, these would be multiple six figure a year salary type people, professionals that you would get for the...

...price of, say, a marketingcoordinator. So really it's when you need that high level expertise when your businessreally demands and you expect reducing the risk of hiring someone who's less qualified todo tactics. That's when you want to bring in a consultant so that theycan bring in that experience to the table. Let's drill a little bit deeper intothat hiring process. When a company goes through the consulting review process,when they're looking at their different options, and there are many options when itcomes to consulting business, what are the key questions to ask? What doesa company need to know or understand in terms of how it consultant operates,their track record, the kind of companies they worked within the past? I'mtrying to get a sense of the due diligence that a company needs to gothrough to make the right marketing consulting higher. I think you should never really hirea consultant unless you have familiarize yourself with their thinking. And what Ialways is if someone comes to me and they're looking for you know they're lookingto hire me, and they've never read an email or blog post of mine. I write daily emails and all kinds of things. I'll basically say,hey, why don't you just read my content for a bit learn, youknow, learn what's going on and really kind of get a sense for howI think and if you want to pay for my thinking applied to your situation. Ultimately, that's what it's there for. So when picking a consultant, Imean referrals can can have a big impact. You know, I justrecently, recently was referred to a client. There's a lot of trust that getstransferred because the person referring me knows that I'm competent and actually the lasttwo clients I got were referrals. So that's a good sign. But ifyou don't have that, the first thing you should look at as the contentdoes a resonate. Do you like their way of thinking? Do you likethe way they're marketing themselves, because that's going to be a potential reflection onhow they're going to market you. And then, in terms of asking questions, you just want to know, hey, what are you going to do?What's your process, what's your thinking? You know, they should be willingto share a little bit of their strategic thinking about your situation and helpyou paint to potential picture what it'll be like to work together. So youcan ask them many questions like. Have you worked with companies like mine before? What kind of results of you gotten? They may have a case study,but at the end of the day it should be really obvious that they'reable to provide value, that they can do so in the sales conversation,regardless of the questions you ask. The consultant should be asking you most ofthe questions and providing you what you need to to to succeed and then paintingthe picture of what a successful engagement will look like. But ultimately, interms of what you ask a consultant. That's what can I expect over thenext six or twelve months and and see if you like it. Let's flipthe coin in terms of the questions that a consultant should ask a potential client, because it is a two way street. You're forming a partnership. It's notlike hiring an employee where they're just going to do what you tell themto do. What should the consultant be asking a company? What should theybe telling them in terms of how they want to work and their processes andthe steps that a consultant wants to take or need to take so they canbe successful with the clients? I mean like anything else, the consultants jobis to get really clear on what the goal is of the client. Whatdoes success look like? And so I use the analogy of Hawaii, forexample, and I say, well, were you trying to go? Andokay, we're trying to go to Hawaii. Okay, well, that tells usa lot. So you know, when do you hope to get there, while I hope to get there by tomorrow and I want to take atrain. Well, let's just not going to happen. First, by identifyingthe goals and the timelines and what does a home run look like and what'srealistic, then you can start to work backwards from that and say, isthis goal reasonable and and ultimately, can I help you achieve that objective?At the consultant should also be checking in, and then this goes both ways,with how they feel during the initial sales conversation. If one person feelsoverly intimidated or doesn't quite feel comfortable with with the kind of working conversation,that may be assign that you're working engage and will be great long term.Other things that a consultan might ask are, have you worked with a consultant before? Because, unlike working with employees, unlike working with freelances or even agencies, a consultant is basically selling you access to their thinking and maybe afew other benefits, like like training, resources and content and structure and otherthings that's ultimately paying someone for. So No, no, it's a greatquestion because and when I look at the...

...client that I just part of theways with, I'm kicking myself, or maybe it's not kicking myself, butI am disappointed that I didn't ask them all these type of questions. Forexample, have you worked with the consultant before? That would have given mea lot of insight into how much I needed to educate the client as faras how I work and how the consultants work and what actually consultants do.The second one would have been what a success look like and be fundamentally clearon what do they want to happen over the next three, six nine months? In the final one, and this is one I think every consultant needsto ask, is what are your priorities? What do you want me to doright now, versus in a month or two months from now, versesix months now, because when a company hires a marketing consultant or consultant,any kind of consultant for that matter, there's a gap that they're trying tofill or a pain that they're trying to resolve and while you're trying to builda long term plan and build a solid foundation, there's low hanging fruit thatneeds to be picked which gives the client confidence and validates the buying decision.So I think these are all things that, in hindsight, I'm going to askblatantly, not just so suddenly, but it's going to make them outand say you have to answer these questions and I, alas, I getthe right answers, then we're not going to be six us for working together. You have to say, like why, like you have to basically try toUN sell them into working with you as well. So why even workwith me? Why not do this yourself? Why not just try this with thefreelancer? Why not just hire an agency to do everything for you?And I think you have to really uncover why they're coming to you and thereneeds to be a good reason about why you versus anyone else and why youas a consultant versus anyone else. And then how do you how do youenvision success? Looking in terms of our relationship. How do you envision?You know, what do you imagine I'm going to do and what do youthink you need to do in order to meet these objectives? So those kindsof questions can really help and pushing back and saying like, why don't?What's the real business case here to work together? What's the value of achievingthe goal in working together? You know you want to grow by ten percentor you want to bring okay, you want to bring structure to your marketingprogram what is that? What is the business value of doing that? What'sthe risk of not doing that? And I think that's where a consultant reallyhas to uncover what is the true business case of working together, and thatonly comes by pushing back and kind of playing devil's advocate about whether they shouldeven work with you in the first place. And I will add that the dynamicsof working with a strategic market and consultant versus someone who's focused on tacticsare completely different, because if you're really good at putting together facebook campaigns orsocial media updates or advertise rising on Google, then there's a specific reason why you'rehiring them and they've got a job to do and you can assess prettyquickly whether they're successful or not. When your higheringness, your teacher market consulted. It takes time and strategies evolve and it may take time for results toemerge. And it lends itself to the next question I want to ask you. But the but the length of an engagement. Now, some marketing happensquickly. You can see the results right away, you can gage whether Royis happening, but a lot of marketing takes time to develop, evolve andproduce results. Is there a sweet spot as far as the length of aconsulting agreement with a marketer, specially one that is focused on strategy as opposedto tactics? I mean, yeah, like when you when you talked withthe difference between strategy and tactics. In and of itself, there's no pointof being the best facebook ads manager if your business is position poorly or orif your target market isn't clear and therefore you don't even know if they're onfacebook. You know. So those are the kind of you know a goodstrategic marketer and I'll get to your question. But a good strategic marketer will ultimatelybe the difference between whether you're kind of succeeding or not. And sorry, could you rephrase your question just a little? What? I'm just tryingto get a sense of how long a consulting negation should be, because alot of a lot of companies they expect instant results. So they want tohire you for a month or two months and as that realistic or your areyou really entering in to a long term relationship? Yeah, I mean no, change really happens fast. So when...

...people come to me, a redflag will be I need to grow like by Black Friday and this is thebeginning of November and all those kinds of things. Real results, sustainable results, happen over several months to several years. So I have clients my minimum engagementsabout six months and I have clients that have stayed with me for goingon five plus years, and that you know. Usually engagements will last forme twenty year and two years, sometimes longer and sometimes less, and that'sbecause really, when they by the time of client is come to hire you, there's so many layers to marketing and it's like building up a steam engine, like it's going to take it's going to take a little bit of timeto build momentum, to get get things moving and and if you expect fullspeed by month six, but you haven't done anything in your track record upto that point to get up to full speed already, then you're going toreally you're not going to achieve what you want. So it's really when you'rehiring a consulting unless you're going in for one specific surgical move, you wantto be thinking at least in terms of three to six months minimum, dependingon the project. But if you're thinking about hiring a fractionacy Moor Market Advisor, it should be, you know, six months, a year sort ofminimum. And then the payoff really the the tactics that you work on,the things the projects are working to, tend to come together and can jealaround six months and then you start to really get traction around twelve, youknow, eight to twelve months. So then the question is, do westay working together or do we part ways after six or twelve months? Havewe accomplished the mission we set out to do and have we reached the endof that consultants expertise? And usually that's not the case. Usually they're ableto hire in house. They get the systems, you set up going andat some point they no longer need you, and then that becomes fairly obvious.Let's take a step back. So Your Company and you've done your duediligence and you've reached an agreement with a marketing consultant. Everyone's excited to getstarted. What needs to happen next? How do both parties articulate how they'regoing to work together, the expectations and the goals? I think all thosethings should be set up before you even get started. You know, that'sstuff should be kind of super clear from the minute you hit go, andif you're kind of just figuring that out once they think is dry and thenyou're kind of already kind of flat footed. So I think ultimately it's about gettingclear on all those things right off the bat, rating before you beginget going, so that the vision is clear as that, when the inkis dry, you're basically running on a predefined trajectory. Not that I wantto focus on the negative, but what happens if the engagement isn't working aswell, as it isn't working at all, or things aren't getting done? I'mI sort of have a fresh wound right now this client. So itis very relevant question. What do you do, like how do you getrealigned with the client to make sure that you're on the same page when itcomes to how you're going to work together, what the expectations are, what needsto get done, because if you don't do that, then the relationshipis going to sour and then no one's going to be happy, and thelast thing as a consultant that I want is an unhappy client, because unhappyclients meaning no referrals the engagements over. The question is, how do youmitigate engagements that may not be going as well as you expected? Assuming you'vedone your upfront work and you have pre qualified people and just established to fitand established a good, positive, trusting relationship, then you shouldn't really runinto that many problems later on. But they do, they do occur.Sometimes you get into the middle of things and that happens. So it's reallythe responsibility. First of all, a consultant should be a fiducier. Theyshould be your advocate, more so, even in addition to all their expertise, they should be looking out for your best interest, in acting in yourbest interest at all times. So things aren't working together. It's the jobof the consultant, a to be willing to have hard but tactful conversations,to address things head on, whether it's how people are, you perceive peopleare feeling, some behaviors that are maybe happening, or some some expectations thataren't being met, either on your half or their half, and ultimately,just addressing it head on and just being ready to put things on the tableso you can deal with them objectively and if, ultimately, if it's notworking, you need to be ready to...

...part ways. Both both parties.Even if there is a commitment period, you should try to work through itas long as there's reasonably a fit and figure out here here they get it, get those expectations realigned. But if, but if they're not going to getback on the track, then you probably would just want to say,you know, we're obviously not a mutual fit for one another. Why don'twe part ways and save ourselves headache, because it just is not worth thestress for either either of you and it's not at anyone's best interest to keepworking together when you do part ways. Is that that easy? Is justa matter of being honest about the fact that there are probably not getting whatthey expected and you're not being able to deliver the value that you want todo and just call it a day. or I'm just trying to figure outhow you and engagements in a very respectful and civil manners, so it's kindof like no harm, no foul, even though they made page you alittle bit of money. Like you don't want the company going away thinking Igot ripped off or this person misrepresented themselves, and at the same time you don'twant a client to think they didn't engage with me, they didn't dowhat they promised they would do, and I wasn't it was impossible for meto do what I that I that, but why they hired to do thejob. Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day it's justabout having the maturity to kind of call things for what they are and justand ultimates about the the business case of working together, so you can sayyou know it looks like. And thirdly, taking responsibility in your end as aconsultant, even even if you're not fully to blame to some degree.You signed on with this client, you said the expectations or not with theclient and then during the engagement the rather meeting those expectations that you agreed to, either in writing, you know, in my writing, in my contracts, I say your are here, are your responsibilities as a as a clientof mine as well, and then just being mature enough to say, youknow what, I must not have managed expectations clearly enough. Or it appears, though, that you're not able to execute on some of these ideas inthe way that we had imagined and I can't see the business case of continuingto work together and unless we make some sort of a change. So eitherwe reduce the scope of our involvement to be more aligned with what's realistic andpossible with you, or we potentially part ways. But you just do thatin a way that takes full ownership, that claims it and says it's allabout the business case. If you don't see the financial business case of workingtogether, it's not a clear win for both parties. You just want tosay look, you, how are you feeling? And I always just reallybe honest, like how how are you feeling with the engagement? Do youfeel like we're moving too fast, too slow, or what have you,and I'll ultimately that's going to be the difference between positive exit or not.And the last thing I'll say is if it feels like like if you're stressedout as a consultant or even as a as a client about the engagement,that's a sign that you have to just communicate. And you had to saythis feels like it's not working. What can we do to turn it around? And if not, I totally understand, but right now this isn't really workingand I don't want to waste anyone's time or money, and that's kindof the approach. But ultimately you do it with tact and you take asmuch ownership as you can and let one another save face to the degree thatyou can, because burning bridges is not going to really benefit anyone and holdingpeople the contracts that they don't want to be in is not going to feelgood for either of you either. It's not going to work. I wantto circle back on something you said about consultants having a producery duty. Oneof the realities as a consultant after you've won an engagement, after you've gonethrough this sales process, you want to keep the client like the last youwant to do as a count insultant is lose a client, there's a tendencyto go into pleaser mode. But what I've learned over the years is thatthe best consultants push back. The best consultants hold to their principles and holdto the way that they do things successfully, and often they'll they'll have the courageor the experience to say that's not how we do things. If youdo this thing, we're going to move in the wrong direction, and Ithink a lot of consultants are afraid of doing that because they think if Ibehave that way, then the client will think think of me in a negativeway and then they could fire me and they live in fear as opposed tomoving forward when confident. That last part...

...of your point kind of reinforced.But I was thinking as you're saying that, which is, as a consultant,you can't you can't be desperate. As soon as you're desperate, ifmeaning like you know you need the money, then you're already putting yourself and you'reclient at risk that you're not going to act in their true for douciaryinterest and part of their froduciary and truth, producier interests. Means you're looking outfor their best interests over yours, right, which is one of thereasons I don't mark up people's time when I make introductions, why I don'tcharge for any execution work. It's all in the limited fixed feed kind ofstuff. So, you know, as long as you're not desperate, thenyou can say things the way that need to be said. You have tobe frank and honest and you have to check in with yourself and saying amI doing work in service of their best in trust, or do we needto be do we need to have sort of a conversation about it? Yeah, it sounds kind of weird because I I love having those kind of conversationswith clients. I feel like that delivered the most value when I'm telling themwhat not to do or how not to spend their money, because ultimately Ifeel a responsibility for their success. They hired me for that, to helpthem become more successful, and I would be doing them a disservice if Ijust went along for the ride, if I didn't raise my hand and sayI don't think this is the right thing to do. I think we shoulddo acts rather than why. It feels very empowering as a consultant to havethat kind of freedom, because I'm not unemployee, I'm not paycheck to paycheckand if they let me go, they let me go, but at leastI've done the best job possible, or I've tried to do the best jobpossible, and that's a really great place to be as a consultant. Yeah, you have to be able to fight for their interests regardless of your position, even if it's hard, even if it means that you should let mego and go spend this limited money you have on other things. You Do, and the many you stop, the many you stop speaking your truth,the many you gloss over something and let it go, is the minute youshouldn't be a consultant. Final question. When you look at the marketing landscapeover the last eighteen months, especially in the BBBB SASS world, a lotof companies thought that covid was the end of the world, and often thefirst thing that goes is marketing. So they all scale back their marketing operations, only to discover that marketing mattered and they had to do marketing because themarket was really doing well. But I've noticed a lot of companies hiring inhouse again at the same time, a lot of x fulltime marketers have hungup their shingle and consulting has become a very popular way to operate, andthat's why I'm seeing a lot of people embracing the fractional mantle. I'm curiousabout your take on the marketing consulting landscape. Do you think there's more opportunities thanever as companies look to fill gaps with specialist or do you think thatwe're heading back towards big in house teams? Or maybe there's there's middle ground thatthat a lot of companies are exploring? That's a great question and I obviouslycan only speak from personal experience. What I see happening is, though, is there's a lot more of a distributed sort of a marketing team.There's about like eighteen different specializations within marketing, everything from graphic design to content writing, copywriting, you you name a web development. So there's so muchthey can be done. So what I'm what I'm seeing is that they typicallyhave kind of a rock a person in houses, a marketing manager who issometimes junior, depending on the size of the marketing budget, or intermediate andsometimes even senior, and they can basically they're basically their job is to produceresults. Now, sometimes that means they also bring in an admin person ora secondhand person to do execution tactical stuff and they focus on the bigger projects. But a surrounding those people, as I'm noticing with my clients, andmaybe this is a bias because they're working with the marketing advisor instead of aninhouse CMO of some kind, but what I'm seeing is that they're they're outsourcein the web development, they're outsource in the graphic design, their outsource inthey're sometimes like content, they tend to bring in house because that tends tobe very close to the brand and the voice. But I'm seeing a muchmore distributed, you know, on demand, flexible model that is centered around someoneto someone to produce an execute and...

...ultimate project manage, someone like anadvisor to really bring in that fractional expertise just to make sure that the guardrails are up and then we're headed in the right direction and somebody who seesinside businesses all days is keeping us on the right tracks so we're not misspendingmoney and we're investing in the development of our systems and processes and building amarketing campaign. Everything else can be outsourced. You know, web development you canget over in the Philippines for twenty five bucks an hour. You can, you can, you know, you can work with ads folks from allof the world, specialists in their craft. It doesn't make sense to hire oneperson who's really only going to be capable at one or two things totry to execute on all the things, unless they've no choice in the smallbudget, in which case, yeah, I mean personally, I think themarketing consulting landscape, the marketing landscape, is really fascinating right now because therules are changing, the rules of engagement are evolving. Where people work,how people work, is being turned upside down and I think two thousand andtwenty one, two thousand and twenty two, is going to be really interesting andI'm excited to be part of it. Capable, thanks for the excellent andinspiring conversation. And where can people learn more about you and what youdo? Thanks. Mark. Probably the best place is my website, KevinDot me. I have some consulting services there and that are sort of generaland then some some everything. All the content pretty well these days, isfocused on helping marketing consultants and advisors build a profitable advisory business, so that'swhere they can go to find out most things about me. Thanks for listeningto another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave areview, subscribe by Apple Podcasts, spotify or your favorite podcast APP, andshare via social media. To learn more about how I help bbsass companies asa fractional CMO, strategic marketing advisor and coach, send an email to markand marketing spark dot com or connect with me on Linkedin. I'll populator.

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