How to Hire the Right Marketing Consultant

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hiring a marketing consultant is often a leap of faith.

You’re hoping their expertise and experience fills gaps and make things happen.

But a lot of consulting engagements don’t work as well as expected.

- There’s misalignment on expectations.

- A lack of engagement and collaboration (no partnership)

- Not enough clarity about what success looks like.

- A lack of commitment to actually do marketing (more talk than walk)

When I lost a client recently, some of these issues reared their ugly heads.

To get some more perspective, I talked to Kevin Whelan, who helps marketing consultants improve their businesses.

A key theme was how companies need to hire consultant and, as important, how and when consultants should take on clients.

Consulting is a two-way street.

Both parties need to agree to work together. It’s there’s a good fit, that’s a great start.

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you'relistening to markets for as a marketing consultant, it's rewarding when whatyou do deliberately value and help you be more successful, but sometimes engagements don't workout for variety of red. I recently parted ways of the client, which isdisappointing, although not terribly Saisin, given the red flags that werepopping on, but it got me thinking about how companies should hire Martianconsultants and in turn how and why marquet consultants should take onengagement with clients in an Adia world you're looking tocreate a win win proposition, the company gets what they needstrategically or tactically, and the consulted performs and gets compensated to get some perspective. I reached outto Kevin Whalen a Markin consultant who also teaches other market professionalshow to build and run a profitable marketing advisory practice. Welcome tomarkle spark, even thanks Mark Nice to be here before we get started. I shouldbe transparent, Kevin and I have been working together for the past year.Kevin is my business coach and he's had a huge impact on how my strategicadvisory business operates. The Roy has been tremendous, so Kevin. I want tostart with the basics, it sounds like a softball question and it is, but Ithink it sets the stage for our conversation. What is a consultant and what should acompany expect them to do and as important not do compared with anemployee, especially with the rise of fractional talent, great question andthere's a lot of parts to that mark. I think, ultimately, the end of the day,a consultants job is to help a client get from point a to point B, whateverthat, whatever that transition looks like that's their first and primaryobjective, but but secondarily their job is to provide risk mitigation andto make sure that things don't fall off the rail, so anytime, someone hires aconsultant. The first thing I want to know is: Okay: How do we not screw upwhat's working and how do we then also achieve our new objectives and our newgoals? So really, the consultant has two main jobs, which is one to reachfor the stars and to help achieve those things. Usually, there are things thatare higher risk or maybe not that the business, butpotentially a shift in positioning or an expansion into say, a new market ora new product of service line, something that is generally inherentlyrisky and or difficult and that the the the company themselves don't have a lotof experience in so that's sort of what a consultant does, and that could evenbe as simple as let's build an effective marketing program just sothat we, you know, we have more structure because we are reallystressed out or disorganized or can mean a number of other things,depending on the context. I think you got a second part of that questionaround employees and and how they sort of different from a consultant exactlyso. The engagement that I was in, I felt like I was being treated like anemployee like I was in some respects and order taker from our conversations.There's a difference between hiring a consultant and hiring an Fulham employ.Maybe you can elaborate on. You know how you delineate and how should? Howshould each party view each other, given the fact that it's not a fulltime engagement yeah? I think a lot of it is just understanding sort of thethe definition or the the objective of of a consultant. So really consultantisn't an employe even by legal definitions. You know in consultantsuse their own tools, you can't tell them sort of exactly where to go andwent to work and how to do things ultimately consultant or any kind of acontractor needs to have some sort of autonomy to accomplish their goals andthey're, not just taking orders in that kind of thing because force, that'sjust not the way, a consultant agreement in structure. Secondly, yourhire, you don't hire a consultant and tell them what to do. You know.Typically, they have more experience on the subject in which you're being therebeing hired for and if you're looking to just sort of higher consult and havethem be a set of hands, you're, better off working with a part time, employeeor you know sure. Maybe some contracts...

...were just going to follow some tasks,but ultimately they're in the business of helping. You accomplish a result, soyea at the end of the day. That's that's you know really importantdistinction is that you have to be ready to kind of siminor process and tosort of be bought into their expertise before you even work with them, andit's the consultant's job of front to set those expectations that hey I'mgoing to. Take you on a journey I'm going to take in your input and we'regoing to go with the best way that I know how to get you that destinationand I need to be able to steer the ship and you need to be able to give up thereins for a bit as we go as we navigate these things now, one of the wild cards within theconsulting world. These days is the idea that fractional executive afractional cm, which is what I do fractional revenue officers fractionalchief financial officers. How does that change the dynamic and and how shouldcompanies view fractional executives of fraction a leadership people I meanthey should use them as consulting engagements pers and foremost there?Might there might be a task component to it. You know fractional c MOStypically also have a bookkeeping component, but that's usually handledby someone on the team and not usually the fractal same out themselves, sojust the same way or CFO. In that case, just the same way, you wouldn't haveyour chief marketing officer, you know, writing tweets and proof, editing blogposts and choosing colors and uploading content on the website you, nor wouldyou have a chief Pactional to marketing officer fractional see about do thosekinds of tasks either. So the way you want to be approaching this is whatwould you know? How do we bring someone in at a high level so that they'regoing to steer the ship they're not going to be the engine they're notgoing to drive projects forward, they're not going to be projectmanagers, even necessarily their facilitators, their move roe blocksthey ultimately their job is to get a result. However, however, they can andneed to be done, a lot of people in the Higher Fractional Semo, or at leastwhen they consider hiring one, are really thinking. They need basically apart time marketing manager so that to me I define that as sort of a managedto advisory services or kind of kind of a contract, marketing position andthat's just different- that's just someone to basically be a set of handswith some level of experience or expertise, tactical or otherwise yeah.Ultimately, you want to be thinking at a higher level with a fractional Cima,which is ultimately an advisory role. Here's another softball question whenand why should a company higher marketing consultant? It's a questionthat I wonder about all the time, because I'm always trying to solicitcompanies that are looking for consulting help, but I am curious about.When can a company justify hiring a consultant versus hiring a full time?Employee Yeah? I mean that's a really good question. Generally speaking, whenyou are, I mean when you have a lot of invested when you're spending ten plusthousand dollars a month. Basically you want to manage that invested, spend aseffectively as you can, and I can it to you know if I were to do say homerenovations on my house every single month for the rest of my life, and Iwasn't really an expert on everything from paint colors to choosing suppliersto knowing how to design the space or something basically I'd be out of mydepth, and that would be every single month forever and ever because that'snot my core competency. So when you bring in a consultant, their job is tobe a steward of your resources and to be a steward of your company and yourgoals and to help you sort of accomplish the outcomes you're. Lookingfor through management of the resources and by removing the roadblocksnecessary to do those things now, you can hire a an employee to do that. Foryou, they just tend to not have the level of senioritythat I say a fractal semo or a marketing adviser would have, andobviously this will vary on a person, my personal basis, who should do yourown due diligence regardless, but that's sort of the main difference. Aconsultant will have a re like a roll of ex of freelancers developers,contractors people that they can bring in to do execution. Work, they'll haveworked with several different clients and several different, either in ourindustry or in similar related industries, and they bring all thewealth of experience that you get to have a piece of you know. These wouldbe multiple six figure a year, salary type people, professionals that youwould get for the price of say a...

...marketing coordinator. So really it'swhen you need that high level expertise when your business really demands, andyou expect reducing the risk of hiring somebody's less qualified to do tactics.That's when you want to bring in a consultant so that they can bring inthat experience to the table, let's drill a little bit deeper intothat hiring process when a company goes through the consulting review processwhen they're looking at their different options, and there are many optionswhen it comes to consulting business. What are the key questions to ask? Whatdoes a company need to know or understand in terms of how itconsultant operates their track record? The kind of companies they've workedwith in the past, I'm trying to get a sense of the due diligence that acompany needs to go through to make the right market consulting higher. I thinkyou should never really hire a consultant unless you have familiarizedyourself what they're thinking and what I always say is. If someone comes to meand they're looking for you know, they're looking to hire me and they've,never read an email or a blog post of minor write, daily emails and all kindsof things. I'll, basically say hey. Why don't you just read my content for abit? Learn, you know, learn! What's going on, I really kind of get a sensefor how I think, and if you want to pay for my thinking, apply to yoursituation. Ultimately, that's what it's there for so when picking a consultantI mean referrals, can can have a big impact that you know. I just recentlyrecently was referred to a client there's a lot of trust that getstransferred because the person referring me knows that I'm competentand actually the last two clints I got were referrals. So that's a good sign,but if you don't have that the first thing you should look at is the content.Does a resonate? Do you like their way of thinking? Do you like the way thatthey're marketing themselves, because that's going to be a potentialreflection on how they're going to market you and then, in terms of askingquestions you just want to know hey? What are you going to do? What's yourprocess? What's your thinking, you know they should be willing to share alittle bit of their strategic thinking about your situation and help you painta potential picture. What it'll be like to work together? So you can ask themmany questions like have you worked with companies like mine before whatkind of results have you gotten? They may have a C study, but at the end ofthe day, Itt should be really obvious that they're able to provide value thatthey can do so in the sales conversation. Regardless of thequestions you ask, the consultant should be asking you most of thequestions and providing you what you need to succeed and then painting thepicture of what a successful engagement will look like. But ultimately, interms of what you ask, I consult and that's what can I expect over the nextsix or twelve months in and see if you like it, let's let the coin in terms ofthe questions that a consultant should ask a potential client, because it is atwo way street you're forming a partnership. It's not like hiring anemployee where they're just going to do what you tell them to do. What shouldthe consultant be asking a company? What should they be telling them interms of how they want to work and their processes and the steps that aconsultant wants to take her needs to take, so they can be successful withclients, I mean, like anything else. The consultants job is to get reallyclear on what the goal is of the client. What does success look like, and so Iuse the analogy of Hawaii, for example, and I say well: Were you trying to goand okay we're trying to go to Hawaii, okay? Well, that tells us a lot. So youknow, when do you hope to get there while I hope to get there by tomorrow,and I want to take a train? Well, that's just not going to happen firstby identifying the goals and the timelines, and what does it home run?Look like and what's realistic, then you can start to work backwards fromthat and say: Is this goal reasonable and, and ultimately can I help youachieve that objective? The consultant should also be checking in, and thenthis goes both ways with how they feel during the initial sales conversation,if one person feels overly intimidated or doesn't quite feel comfortable withwith the kind of working conversation that may be a sign that you're workingengagement won't be great long term. Other things that a consultant mightask or have you worked with a consultant before, because, unlikeworking with employees, unlike working with freelances or even agencies, aconsultant is basically selling you access to their thinking and maybe afew other benefits like like training, resources and content and structure andother things, that's ultimate. Why you're paying someone for? So? No. No,it's a great question because in when I...

...look at the client that I just partedways with I'm kicking myself, or maybe it's not kicking myself, but I amdisappointed that I didn't ask them all these type of questions. For example,have you worked with a consultant before that? I would have given me alot of insight into how much I needed to educate the client as far as how Iwork and how the consultants work and what actually consultants do, thesecond one would have been what a success look like and be fundamentallyclear on what do they want to happen over the next three six nine months inthe final one- and this is one I think every consultant needs to ask- is whatare your priorities? What do you want me to do right now versus in a month ortwo months from now vor six months now, because when a company hires a Martianconsultant or a consultant, any kind of consultant for that matter, there's agap that they're trying to fill or a pain that they're trying to resolve andwhile you're trying to build a long term plan and build a solid foundation,there's low hanging fruit that needs to be picked which gives the clientconfidence and validate the buying decision. So I think these are allthings that in hindsight, I'm going to ask blatantly not just so suddenly, butit's going to come out and say you have to answer these questions and I, alas,I get the right answers. Then we're not going to be sex. Six US wile workingtogether, you have to say like why, like you, have to basically try tounsell them into working with you as well. So why even work with me? Why notdo this yourself? Why not just try this with the freelancer? Why not justhigher an agency to do everything for you, and I think you have to reallyuncover why they're coming to you and there needs to be a good reason aboutwhy you versus anyone else and why you as a consultant versus anyone else, andthen how do you? How do you envision succiss, looking in terms of ourrelationship? How do you envision, you know? What do you imagine I'm going todo and what do you think you need to do in order to meet these objectives? Sothose kinds of questions can really help and pushing back and saying likewhy? Don't what's the real business case here to work together? What's thevalue of achieving the goal in working together, you know you want to grow byten percent or you want to bring okay. You want to bring structure to yourmarketing program. What is that? What is the business value of doing that?What's the risk of not doing that, and I think that's where consultant reallyhas to uncover what is the true business case of working together andthat that only comes by pushing back and kind of playing devil's advocateabout whether they should even work with you in the first place, and I willadd that the dynamics of working with a strategic marketing consultant versussomeone who's focused on tattics are completely different, because, ifyou're really good at putting together facebook campaigns or social mediaupdates or advertising on Google, then there's a specific reason why you're,hiring them and they've got a job to do, and you can assess pretty quickly,whether they you're successful or not. When you're higher mister teachermarket insultant, it takes time and strategies evolved, and it may taketime for results to emerge and it lends itself to the next question. I want toask you but book, but the length of an engagement. Now some marketing happensquickly. You can see the results right away. You cangauge whether Roy ishappening, but a lot of marketing takes time to develop, evolve and produceresults. Is there a sweet spot as far as the length of a consulting agreementwith the marketer, especially one that is focused on strategy as opposed totactics? I mean yeah like when you, when you talk about the differencebetween strategy and tactics in and of itself, there's no point in being thebest facebook gods manager. If your business is positioned, poorly or or ifyour target market isn't clear and therefore you don't even know ifthey're on facebook you know so those are the kind. You know a good strategic,marketer and I'll get to your question, but a good strategic marketer willultimately be the difference between whether you're kind of succeeding ornot and sorry can you rephrase your question just what I'm trying to get asense of how long a consulting ication should be because a lot of a lot ofcompanies they expect instant results. So they want to hire you for a month ortwo months, and is that realistic or you are you really entering into a longdown relationship yeah? I mean no...

...change really happens fast. So whenpeople come to me, a red flag will be. I need to grow like by. You Know BlackFriday, and this is the beginning of November and all those kinds of things, a realresults. Sustainable results happen over several months to several years.So I have clients my minimum engagements about six months and I haveclients that of stayed with me for going on five plus years and that youknow usually engagement to last for me between a year and two years, sometimes longer and sometimes less,and that's because really when they by the time a client is come to hire. Youthere's so many layers to marketing and it's like building up a steam enginelike it's going to take it's going to take a little bit of time to buildmomentum to get get things moving and if you expect full speed by month, six.But you haven't done anything in your track record up to that point- to getup to full speed already then you're going to really you're not going toachieve what you want. So it's really when you're hiring a consultant unlessyou're going in for one specific, surgical move. You want to be thinking,at least in terms of three to six months, minimum depending on theproject, but if you're thinking about hiring a fractional, Cy Moor MarketAdviser, it should be. You know six months a year sort of minimum and thenthe payoff release the tactics that you work on the things the projects a weregoing to tend to come together and can deal around six months, and then youstart to really get traction around twelve. You know eight to twelve months,so that in the question is, do we stay working together or do we part ways?After six or twelve months of we accomplished the mission we set out todo and have we reached the end of that consultants, expertise and usuallythat's not the case, usually they're able to hire in house they get thesystems you set up going and at some point they no longer need you and thenthat becomes fairly obvious. Let's take a step back, so your companyand you've done your due diligence and you reach an agreement with a markingconsultant everyone's excited to get started. What needs to happen next? Howdo both parties articulate how they're going to work together the expectationsand the goals? You think all those things should be set up before you evenget started. You know that stuff should be kind of super clear from the minuteyou had go and if you're kind of just figuring that out once think is driedand then you're kind of already kind of flat footed. So I think ultimately,it's about getting clear on all those things right off the bat rating beforeyou get going so that the division is clear. Is that when you, the ink, isdry you're, basically running on a predefined trajectory, not that I want to focus on thenegative. But what happens if the engagementisn't working as well as it isn't working at all or things aren't gettingdone? I'm I sort of have a fresh wood right now with this client, so it isvery relevant question. What do you do like? How do you get realigned with theclient to make sure that you're on the same page when it comes to how you'regoing to work together, what the expectations are? What needs to getdone? Because, if you don't do that, then the relationship is going to sourand then no one's going to be happy, and the last thing, as a consultantthat I want is an unhappy client because unhappy clients mean noreferrals. The engagements over the question is: How do you mitigateengagements that may not be going as well as you expected, assuming you'vedone your up friend work and you have pre qualified people and justestablished a fit and establish a good, positive, trusting relationship. Thenyou shouldn't really run into that many problems later on, but they do they dooccur. Sometimes you get into the middle of things, and that happens. Soit's really the responsibility. First of all, a consultant should be aFIDUCIA. They should be your advocate more so, even in addition to all theirexpertise, they should be looking out for your best interest in acting inyour best interest at all times, so things aren't working together. It'sthe job of the consultant, a tad be willing to have hard, but tactfulconversations to address things head on whether it's how people are youperceive. People are feeling some behaviors that are maybe happening orsome some expectations that aren't being met either on your half or theirhalf and ultimately just addressing it head on and just being ready to putthings on the tables you can deal with them objectivelyl and if, ultimately,if it's not working, you need to be...

...ready to part ways both both parties.Even if there is a commitment period, you should try to work through it aslong as there's reasonably a fit and figure out here here they get it getthose expectations realigned. But but if they're not going to get back in thetrack, then you probably just want to say you know we're, obviously not amutual fit for one another. Why don't we part ways and save ourselves theheadache, because it just is not worth the stress for either either of you andit's not at anyone's best interest to keep working together. When you do partways, is it that easy? It's just a matter of being honest about the factthat they're, probably not getting what they expected and you're not being ableto deliver the value that you want to do and just call it a day or I'm justtrying to figure out how you end engagements in a very respectful andcivil manner. So it's kind of like no harm no foul, even though they may payyou a little bit of money like you, don't want the company going awaythinking, I got ripped off or this person misrepresented themselves and atthe same time you don't want a client to think they didn't engage with me.They didn't do what they promised. They would do, and I wasn't it wasimpossible for me to do what I that I had, but why they harel do do the job yeah I mean at the end of the day, it'sjust about having the maturity to kind of call things for what they are andjust and ultimates about the business case of working together. So you couldsay you know it looks like, and thirdly, taking responsibility and your rend asa consultant, even even, if you're not fully to blame to some degree yousigned on with this client. You said the expectations are not with theclient and then during the engagement, the rather meeting those expectationsyou agreed to either. In writing. You know in my writing and my contracts. Isay Yore are here your responsibilities as a Clinton mine as well, and thenjust being mature enough to say you know what I must not have managedexpectations clearly enough, or it appears, though, that you're not ableto excute on some of these ideas in the way that we had imagined, and I can'tsee the business case of continuing to work together unless we make some sortof a change so either we reduce the scope of our involvement to be morealigned with what's realistic and possible with you or we potentiallypart ways, but you just do that in a way that takes full ownership thatclaims it and says it's all about the business case. If you don't see thefinancial business case of working together, but it's not a clear win forboth parties, you just want to say: Look, you know. How are you feeling-and I always just really be honest like how? How are you feeling, but theengagement? Do you feel like we're moving too fast, too slow, or what haveyou and ultimately that's going to be the difference between positive exit ornot, and the last thing I'll say is if it feels like like if you're stressedout as a consultant or even as a client about the engagement, that's a signthat you have to just communicate and you have to say this feels like it'snot working. What can we do to turn it around and, if not, I totallyunderstand, but right now, this isn't really working and I don't want towaste anyone's time or money and that's kind of the approach, but ultimate youdo it with tact and do you take as much ownership as you can and let oneanother save face to the degree that you can, because burning bridges is notgoing to really benefit anyone and holding people like contracts that theydon't want to be in is not going to feel good for either you either it'snot going to work. I want to circle back on something you said aboutconsultants having a producer duty, one of the realities as a consultant afteryou've won an engagement after you've gone through the sales process. Youwant to click. The client like the last thing you want to do is a Colton Sultanis lose a client there's a tendency to go into pleaser mode. But what I'velearned over the years is that the best consultants push back the bestconsultants hold to their principles and hold to the way that they do thingssuccessfully and often they'll they'll have the courage or the experience tosay: That's not how we do things. If you do this thing, we're going to movein the wrong direction and I think a lot of consultants are afraid of doingthat, because they think, if I behave that way, then the client willthink think of being a negative way, and thenthey could fire me and they live in...

...fear, as opposed to movie forward man.Confidence that last part of your point kind of enforced. What what I wasthinking as you were saying that which is as a consultant you can't you can'tbe desperate as soon as you're, desperate. If meaning like you know,you need the money, then you're already putting yourself and your cling at riskthat you're not going to act in their true fiduciary interests and part oftheir predicary interet pose your interest just means you're looking outfor their best interests over yours right, which is one of the reasons Idon't mark up people's time. When I make introductions why I don't chargefor any execution work, it's all in the mitad fixed feed kind of stuff. So youknow as long as you're, not desperate, then you can say things the way thatneed to be said. You have to be frank and honest, and you have to check inwith yourself and say: Am I doing working service of their best interestor do we need to be? Do we need to have sort of a conversation about it? Yeah?It sounds kind of weird, because I I love having those kind of conversationswith clients I feel like I deliver the most value when I'm telling them whatnot to do or how not to spend their money, because, ultimately, I feel theresponsibility for their success. They hire me for that to help them becomemore successful and I would be doing them a disservice if I just went alongfor the ride. If I didn't raise my hand and say I don't think this is the rightthing to do. I think we should do acts rather than why it feels veryempowering as a consultant to have that kind of freedom, because I'm not anemployee, you not pay check to pay check, and if they let me go, they letme go, but at least I've done the best job possible or I've tried to do thebest job possible and that's a really great place to be as a consultant yeah.You have to be able to fight for their interests regardless of your position.Even if it's hard, even if it means hey, you should let me go and go, spend thislimited money. You have on other things that you do in the minute. You Stop theminute. You Stop Speaking your truth. The minute you gloss over something andlet it go is the minute you shouldn't be a consultant final question. Whenyou look at the marketing landscape over the last eighteen months, especially in the BB SAS world, a lotof companies thought that coved was the end of the world and often the first thing that goes ismarketing. So they all scale back the marketing operations only to discoverthat marketing mattered and they had to do marketing because the market wasreally doing well. But I've noticed a lot of companies hiring in house again. At the same time, a lot of X, full time,marketers, have hung up the shingle and consulting has become a very popularway to operate, and that's why I'm seeing a lot of people embracing thefractional mantle? I'm curious about your take on the marketing consultinglandscape. Do you think, there's more opportunities than ever as companieslook to fill gas with specialists, or do you think that we're heading backtowards big in house teams, or maybe there's there's mittler und that that alot of companies are exploring? That's a great question and I obviouslycan only speak from personal experience. What I see happening is that is,there's a lot more of a distributed sort of a marketing team, there's aboutlike eighteen, different specializations within marketingeverything from graphic design to content. Writing copy. Writing. Youname a Web Eveleen, so there's so much that can be done. So what I'm? What I'mseeing is that they typically have kind of a rock a person in house WHO's, amarketing manager who has sometimes junior depending on the size of themarketing budget or intermediate, and sometimes even senior, and they canbasic they're. Basically, their job is to produce results now, sometimes thatmeans they also bring in an admin person or a second hand. Person To youknow to do execution tactical stuff and they focus on the bigger projects, butsurrounding those people, as I'm noticing with my clients, and maybethis is a bias because they're working with the marketing adviser instead ofan in house Cmu of some kind. But what I'm seeing is that they're they'reoutsourcing the web development, their rout source and the graphic design thered source in there sometimes like content. They tend to bring in housebecause that tends to be very close to the brand and and the voice, but I'mseeing much more distributed. You know, undemanded L, that is sended aroundsomeone to someone to produce an...

...executed and ultimate project managesomeone like an advisor to really bring in that fractional expertise just tomake sure that the guard rails are up and then we're headed in the rightdirection, and somebody who sees inside businesses all days is keeping us onthe right track. So we're not misspending money and we're investingin the development of our systems and processes and building a marketingcampaign. Everything else can be outsourced. You Know Web developmentyou can get over in the Philippines for twenty five bucks an hour you can youcan you know you can work with ads folks from all over the worldspecialists in their craft. It doesn't make sense to hire one person who'sreally only going to be capable at one or two things to try to execute on allthe things unless they have no choice in the small budget, in which case yeahI mean personally, I think the marketing consulting landscape, themarketing landscape is really fascinating right now, because therules are a changing. The rules of engagement are evolving where peoplework how people work is being turned upside down, and I think two thousandand twenty one, two thousand and twenty two is going to be really interestedand I'm excited to be part of it. Capitale thanks for the excellent andinspiring conversation. Where can people learn more about you and whatyou do thanks for probably the best place is at as my website Kevin Dot me.I have some consulting services there and that are sort of general and then some some everything all the contentpretty well. These days is focused on helping marketing consultants andadviser build a profitable advisor business. So that's where they can goto find out. Most things about me thanks for listening to another episodeof Marketing Park. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review subscribedby, I apple podcasts spotify or your favorite podcast APP and share bysocial media, to learn more about how I help TB SAS companies as a fractional,Co, strategic, Markes, advisor and coach, then an email to mark and marketspark co or connected me on like Dat. I to Oat.

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