The "One Big Thing" Formula for B2B SaaS Marketing Success

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

The biggest marketing challenge for many companies simply getting started.

There are so many options that it’s almost paralysis by analysis.

In many cases, companies do too much.

They believe that more channels or campaigns equal more success.

It’s better to focus on doing a small number of things really well.

Pick a channel and run hard with it.

A key part of Jordan Behan ’s approach to getting started with marketing is: One Big Thing.

Pick a marketing tactic like an eBook, Webinar, video, or course to stand out.

I like the idea of One Big Thing because it establishes realistic expectations, structure, and focus.

It's Mark Evins and you're listening tomarketing far podcast of delivers insight for marketers and entrepreneursin the trenches in twenty five minutes a lot. In the past year, a BBC marketing worldhas been turned upside down and to ee cofens, an er out virtual conferencesare in brands that created little or no content to become publishing machinesand link in has become de place to consume content and connect to provide contact and insight into thefast changing DASS marketing world and happy to have Jordan pm co with narrow,creative in Vancouver welcome to Marketing Park. Thank you mark. It's it's nice to meet you. I guess this is. This is what a meeting lookslike in two thousand and twenty one. I suppose so it's lovely to finally put face and voice to thelinkin profiles. I suppose yeah. It certainly is a different way to connectwith people. So just as background Jordan and I connected through a mutualfriend via Linkin Jordan, as marketer in Vancouver, I'm a marketer in Torontoand by exchanging comments on Linkin post by watching Jordan's videos onYuture. It's hard not to feel that you get to know somebody even before you'veeven talked to them. I think that's one of the the silver linings of Covin isthat we've embraced new ways of connecting and having conversations inthis podcast is a classic example of that we're using all these substitutes andand analogus for t would otherwise be. I guess you know you being in Toronto.This is as good as it's going to get for US anyhow, but it's yeah. It'salways interesting. When you first meeting with somebody is, you know something is disconnected anddigital, I guess, is a a zoom call or a phone conversation orsomething like that. We take what we can get these days. We certainly do and I think it haschanged how we interact with each other, and some of it will change, and some ofit we'll say we'll say the same: Let's get to the exciting world of BET TO BESASS marketing. One of the things that you're focusedon a lot is content marketing and the state of content. Marketing for BT.SASS companies has changed dramatically over the past year, given the fact thatconferences aren't happening and a lot of brands seem to be pumping out a lotof content. I'm curious about your take on who's, doing it well and what are some of the mistakes thatcompanies are making as they become content, marketing machines? Sure? Well, I think you know in terms of WHO's, doing well,there's a couple of ways. We can look at that there's there are the the players who have always done a goodjob with content marketing, you think of branlike hub spot, or I could nameat poot sweet I've learned a lot. I...

...know we're going to talk later aboutABMEDNUGGAR. I've learned a lot from demand base in that regard, but I getmore excited about the early stage. Companies who you know they're, probably flying underthe radar as far as getting props from the likes of us, areconcerned because they're doing a good job of staying niche and focusing ontheir ideal customers and so their their stories, their their value andtheir narrative is specific. Just to that tiny sliver or that tiny nice ofpeople and there they're solving that specific problem, and so selfishly Imean I'd love to name drop. All the companies that work with me, becausethat's what we focus on is you know, there's a there's, adisconnect between your grand ambitions and your current realities. As far asyou know, investing your resources and a creating content that will actuallyresonate with and to get results right right to put sales on the board.Ultimately, so I think the people who are you know narrowing their focus to aspecific tribe. That's when I get excited okay, I'll, give you the ability toname drop and I'll, give you the ability to cite one of your customers,because Sir sures marketers it's easy to talk about things that are close tohome and things that we have a direct impact on. Maybe you can talk about oneof your customers and what have what have they created in and why is it workso? Well, I work with a bunch of different companies and but to speak to one in particular, Iwork with a brand called censer up and they do Internet of things they're like a ainternet of things, data platform, all of your sensor, data in one. Youknow like let's break down the silos and give you a dash board of all ofyour assets and things like trajectory. What what doyou have and how fast is it moving in real time in the world, whether it'speople or trucks, or what have you? You know the to go back to what you'resaying about the absence of in person, events, the the Weben is really sort ofexperiencing a moment and when you can create a Weber that is focused on a a specific niche and aspecific I hate I don't like the word user, but that Persono or that that youknow one individual person out there for whom this will resonate with andyou choose to create. You know it takes a lot of work to prepare and host a webin are, and it's counter intuitive to think. Well, let's just limit the focusto engineers within industrial...

...companies. You know like it's kind ofobscure and it's it seems almost. You know like a massive challenge to reachpeople like that, but when you can create something that- and this is atrick that I use often is like put it right into the name of your content-who it's for, so that there is no ambiguity and the the person you'retrying to target immediately perks up and feels that fo mo and has no choicebut to subscribe to your web in R and either attend, live or listen to therecording, so that that's one area where the idea of taking a topic and a subject matter, expert andmaybe subject matter: exper guests as well and just holding court on that topicand shedding light and focusing on the education piece. This is what ispossible. There is a better future for you. If you follow certain, you know,if you have a plan- and you you know, set a course for where it is that youwant to go, and I guess you know to answer your previous question too, islike you're doing it. Well, when your focus is on instruction and teachingand helping people to learn what's possible and you actuallyshow them the the you know the steps necessary to get there a lot of thetime. I don't know if you're going to ask me about this, but I'll go aheadand answer it. The the biggest mistake I think, a lot of specially bt companies make and in Sassis to focus so heavily on the product and its features. When and then that'sit's easy to fall into that trap, because you work so hard on somethingthat is so beautiful and elegant and solves all of these problems. But youlost sight about talking about the fact that it solves those problems andthat's really the only thing that your potential buyer cares about what matterlike? What's it going to do for me, you know what have you done for me latelyand if you don't lead with that, if you can't, you know, make the the focus ofsharing that information and teaching people. That's not your priority, then it's a miss. This is a strange question to ask,given that many BBC companies have been producing a lot of content over thepast year, but how did they get started withcontent marketing? The reason I asked this is because a lot of companies haverumbled down the path. They've created a lot of content and it's misaligned.It's not very good in consistent quality, they're doing a lot of thingswrong. So, if, if those companies had to take a step back and reload on theircontent marketing strategies, how would you suggest that they get actually getstarted? I love this question because that is,that is my sweet spot. The very first thing that you need to do is to have aninternal conversation around branding.

Who Are we? What is our message? Whatis our focus? What are our desired outcomes and get everybody all thestake holders, at least to agree on those things so that all of thesubsequent decisions become a little bit easier? You have something of atrue north where you know, if something is up for debate, you can go back toyou, know your brand principles and vision and say: okay. This is this isthe course we want to take, because it's aligned with what we agreed is theessence of our our company's brand. And then you have to focus on that and userand I've hinted at this already. But it's you know, there's a differencebetween you know with Bob Sass, you probablyhave an investor deck somewhere that talks about how you're you know. You'vecharted a path to becoming a Unicorn, but you also have you know therealities of that little bit of runway. You have in thebank, and you have to make that count, and so you have, I really no choice butto say: okay, well, here's what we think we can afford to focus on interms of a tiny niche market and again, there's that's completely at odds withyou know the company's ambitions you have to scale it back to the realitiesof this current quarter. What can we achieve with our current budget andpeople this quarter and only then once you've decided, youknow, t establish that persona that that company type or wherever the sweetspot is- and it's like, I always picture a ven diagram of, but who canwe help now with our current product and who's able to buy from us? And it'sin that sort of sweet spot between the two? And you know you decide on that,and only then do you start preparing content and for me, the the single most powerful piece ofcontent that you can create as a case study, some sort of social proof. Let's get it in in you know: thecustomers words singing the praises of the wonderful transformation theyexperienced by using your product if you're going to make one piece ofcontent this week or this month, or this quarter make it a killer k studythat shows the next hundred Betboron that you want to sign shows them a version of success thatlooks a lot like them and so you're demosion, the you know the potentialoutcomes and, to some extent the pathway to get there. Aside from that, assuming let's say youdo have a K study you've got that all lined up, but you're still, you knowsort of scratching your head around how to start with content marketing. My advice is, may be different frommost, I think, create one great thing: It could be a Weben AR, for example, wetalked about webbons. I like e books as well, because they're easy to produceeasy diversion. You know: There's no fancy, resources or hardwarenecessary right words on a page, some...

...element of design, but you know if brand is solved andcustomer persona or ideal client profile is, is locked in then createone great thing, and it could even be a top of funnel general awareness of yourproblem document and then focus on distributing that. And if you can, Imean I go a little deeper than that. I also say find a way to convert peopleto your list to receive that thing, and we webers kind of solved that piece foryou right, but because as much as we're here to talk about marketing andmarketing is kind of you know our respective discipline. The reality,especially with early stage SASS, is that marketing and sales are reallymashed together. They're, often the same person or or that you knowtechnical founder, whose core competency is neither but they'reforced to do both, and so that, especially for me, like the the linesbetween marketing and sales, get very fuzzy. You use marketing to getsomebody on to your list or to start a conversation, and you very quicklytransition to sales, because that's what it's about right, that's whatmarketing is and- and maybe that makes me a little different- that I firmlybelieve that marketing works in the service of sales, which maybe I don'tknow if that may be sort of transition. Just to other parts of the conversationwhere you know, I guess eliminating that silo both in terms of people,collaboration, content, creation, like thinking of those things as two partsof the same whole, especially in the early stages of a company, is kind of. I think it's necessary. Let me take a step back sure, let'spause before we move forward, and I want to be clear about the focus on acase study and a big piece of content, whether it's an e book or a reallygreat video or Weber. So what you're suggesting is that quick wins is to getthe content marketing machine rolling, because I think a lot of BAS companiesget mired in planning. How many block pots are we going to do how many who'sgoing to do them? How do we what's the work flow? How many videos do we createand then I think they get intimidated or they get overwhelmed by the amountof content that they possibly could create, and it sounds like what you'resuggesting is that just focus on a couple of pieces of low hanging fruit?Get it done? Get some momentum get some energy get a feel for whatcontent is like and that'll set the stage for whatever you're going to donext? Is that an accurate depiction? That is exactly right. That's why Ianswered the question the way I did, because you know as a you know, somebody who isa consultant who was previously primarily a content creator on behalfof O Sass brands. It's that that's the...

...most common issue is they'll. Come toyou and say we need x number of blog posts this month here we need a blockpost about why or x and and all of the necessary follow up questions that acontent creator like myself, has to ask to gain clarity as to exactly what itis that you're asking for. You often get you know black stairs and you knowno detail in the responses. Okay, so you say you want a blogosphere, thisthing, which funnel stage should that be for or who is the audience for thisthing or what's the desired outcome of this block post and all of that stuffthat hasn't been considered? There's this like it's a fallacy that you needto be turning out content like crazy, although obviously there are manybrands who do that successfully, but it's because they've already nailed thefundamentals and they probably have given thought to what is the objectiveof this piece? What's the action that we want somebody to take if they readto the end and those you know basic fundamental things and so to gettrapped in thinking that you have to create four five blog posts this monthis you know, you're chasing the wrongmetrics and goals? I would advise that, rather than focus on you know, volumefigure out quality first and then invest your time in distribution ofthat great thing. If all of your marketing this month was just you know,sort of social media and email marketing that is in the service ofpromoting a single Weben ar this quarter you're going to achieve betterresults than if you are, you know, turning over blood post after bloodpost constantly in that creative problem of what do we talk about next? And I'm saying worry less about thatand talk about one thing and and where can you have that conversation beforewe talk about Abambar? I do want to talk about Av m in the different movieparts, because it's getting a lot of attention these days to circle. Backwith your initial comment about branding, where does positioning fitinto the scheme of things, because when I start with a lot of clients, I startwith positioning getting that story down, providing context about what theydo and why it matters because, like you, I believe that you've got to put thefoundation down before you can do any kind of market. On top of it, you don'tknow who your ideal customer is. If you don't know how you're unique, if youdon't know the competitive alternatives, your operating blind are. The kind ofthe same is the way what you do and what I do kind of the same to reallyset the stage or is it different? I don't think it's different at all,not we're. We have maybe different hammers for the same nail. Isuppose the I kind of already alluded to this when I talked about my processwhere it's you know determine what your brand is. What you're about you knowthat's kind of the branding play and...

...then once you've solved the customer.Who is it specifically that we're trying to reach? Who is the internalchampion at that company whose life will be made better by our product andthat's what determines your positioning, and this is where I start talking likea marketer, but in order to reach them and to resonate with them on a any meaningful level, you have to keyinto what hurts you have to find their their pain and promise a solution tothat pain, and in order to do that, you kind of have to exploit that pain alittle bit. You know I did it today in a linked in post. You know, or do youfeel like is that? Are you looking at that runway drop dead date and freakingout about the fact that you don't have enough leads coming in this quarter?You know it it's that something that can cause a viserreaction in them. First, and it's again, I joke about thefact that it's like a marketer being a marketer to exploit. I use these wordslike exploit to be cute, but in reality, that is the most altruistic thing youcan do is to stop thinking about yourself and start thinking about thethe the people whose problems you can solve and the way that you show them.That you understand is to highlight those problems and totalk at length about what hurts and only then- and you agitate a little bittoo like this is what happens when it hurts like that right. I mean you fearexactly this thing. You know this. This horrible worst case scenario outcome onthe horizon that you desperately want to avoid your positioning becomes. Weunderstand your pain, but we also have a solution that can get o you to thistransformation from where you are now where it hurts to where you want to go,and maybe we're going to show you examples of people who have done that,or maybe we're going to give you a a road map to success to go from here tothere, but it's first understanding what hurts and then proposing a solution of course, butalways with the eye on the prize of what is the? What is the transformation that isgoing to a C occur? If you consider a solution like ours and atthe top of the funnel? That's it it's just a solution like ours. It's thistype of technology or this new, this new way of cobbling together a set ofsolutions or it's our product, which is similar to others, plus our solution ofour willingness to help you or whatever. It is that you used to differentiate.But you got to start with the pain and promise a transformation. There are many ways that BBC companiescan get to prospects and customers.

Some things are more of a shock gunapproach where you spread the word as widely as possible, and you get thebrand out there and you identify who matters to you and you connect with himin different places. There's a lot of attention these days on ABN accountbays marketing. I am curious about your take on how does a BBC company that may nothave expertise in a B M? Why should they consider ab m to startand then what are the key pillars to actually start to implement an a DMstrategy? It's an excellent question, and I love that we are talking about thisbecause I'm I'm AB certified. I went out and I learned everything I couldabout am and it it feels as though a B M is like. I don't know it's like the tool of thethe massive corporate almost like fortune, one thousand companies wherethere it has occurred to them that maybe they would achieve better successif they had meetings between their sales and marketing departments andmaybe what if marketing, was creating assets that were specifically designedto help the sales department. To answer your question with early stage: SASScompanies, the reason why they should embrace ABMELECH, they have no otherchoice, but I said before sometimes your your founder marketer, salespersonor all the same person. For you know, there is a very small body count in theearly days where that level of collaboration and making resources gofurther, absolutely require that you're notgoing to waste resources, building marketing materials or brandingcampaigns that are somewhere off in the ether and not directly connected togetting more in bound leads or. However, it is that you do that. I mean maybeyou're using outbound sales, but the assets created by marketing have to bevery specific to the job of converting and nurturing leads, and you know to do anything else- is to towaste resources in time, and so you know a BMIDH, not this. It is allthe materials that you'll read will make. It seem like some difficult toachieve concept when it is exactly the opposite of my opinion. It's a salesand a marketing person in the room saying. How do we work together toachieve a common objective? You know as much as you know you got demand basedand these companies who are selling abmelech to the upper echelons of a Bto be sales out there, and I'm saying like really all these guys are sayingis a sales marketing need to work together and that marketing needs tobuild assets that help sales. I mean, that's, that's I don't know why there'sso much mystery around her right, but...

...in simple terms for a for a smallNimble, tvas company. Is it a matter of identifying the customers or theprospects that matter to us? Are these roof of companies? There are fifty ahundred two hundred five hundred and then focusing our efforts directly orindirectly on those companies, whether it's direct outreached by a salesperson or advertising campaigns that are targeting these people, as when youbreak it down in simple terms, is that it yes and again it's to do anything, butis a fool's errand right? You have maybe it's maybe it's just a few peoplemade the marketing department of one person, or you know a team of two orand finite resources. You don't have a ton of budget and so absolutely make alist of a hundred, and, as I said, if you, if you've got brand locked in, ifyou know h who the ideal client profile is then go out and make a list of ahundred companies that match those characteristics and mind set that youtalked about in your ideal client profile exercises. It's almost. Itmakes marketing and sales that much easier, because now there are only ahundred for whom we are focused, go out and follow them all. On social mediapay attention to every single thing. They say sign up for every single newsletterthat they they have understand them on a level that will shock them that youput, that kind of time in when you reach them and so wet, whether it'slist, building or outbound or virtually any sales and marketing tactic that youcan think of. If you limit your focus to that small list, the likelihood thatyou resonate with any of them is way higher, and I know what everybody'sthinking is like. Well, what about the rest of the world? What about thepeople? Not On that list of a hundred while people who are adjacent to thatlist, or one degree different or maybe the hundred and fifth company thatdidn't make your cut, are still going to resonate with your message, becauseyou took the time to focus. You understand exactly who it is thatyou're trying to reach, and so people who look like the hundred we'll stillget value from what it is that you're doing you can still land those accounts.You can still sell to the people who are in existing sales cycles with you.It's just that you're not going to waste any time, resources or contentcreation on people who don't fit the very specific criteria that you've setfor your your list of a hundred and when you know when you're a early stagemarketer whether you're, a junior or you know the first higher vp you've gotto act. You've got to do something creating that list and focusing on themand their needs and listening to them is like a terrific step. One and againI like it, has this name of abmelech to me. It's like you, have no choice rightlike to do to think of a list of...

...greater than that or to to have content or messaging that ishomogenized such that it's it's more mass appeal is never going to stick it's only when you choose that focusand you make your list of a hundred and then, like, I said things like gettingout on social media and creating a list, for example, of all of those companiesand the things that that's how you determine what hurts that's, how youdetermine what it is they're, looking for, or what's next or the kinds ofthings that motivate them, and you understand it and you use that for yournext content piece. I wanted to ask you about the La Marketing playbook I wentthrough it. I downloaded it. I watched the video love it. I think it's a greatapproach to BBC marketing curious about the fact that you made this methodologyfront and center and that you're essentially giving away the tradesecrets of Nera creative. Why did you do it? What kind of response do you getto it and does it make your brand? Your message that much easier because tarderaudiences know exactly how you operate. I think so, yes, th. That's a lot ofquestions I'll, try to remember them all and as the Molire, that's okay, the reason why I created it and, first of all, I should start by sayinghow much it means to me to hear you say that, because it that is not getting old. Yet whenpeople say that they love it and they get it it just it warms my heart it. It helps me to appreciate all thework I put into creating it. It's a Los Work and looks like a lot of what isand, and so and just for a bit of background, the Lean Marketing playbook for Software S. Services has many forms, but the end product is a acombination of Video Training and Group coaching and agency services, so acompany they sign, and we take them through that, like video trainingmodules and documents take them through that process of asking themselves thosebrandnew questions in module to it's asking yourself. Those ideal, clientprofile questions, and then you know from module. Three onwards is okay,complete a creative brief based on everything that we've talked about, andour agency services will create that content for you, while coaching you, along with themethodology both through Video Training and Group coaching. So it's anopportunity for me to scale the services that I offer to early stagesoftware companies, but because of the need that I see right there, they theyoften do have this mistaken notion of what they're supposed to be doing. Youknow it's almost like running on the hamster wheel, trying to create volumeor or keep a certain pace of something up, and they haven't stopped to thinkabout the focus, and so I create a...

...system where they're forced to you knowestablish that focus for themselves. Before we move on to essentially it's creating an entireinbound, funnel landing page, an Ebook giveaway offer an email nurturesequence that triggers when somebody signs up. We produce a a productdocument and a case study as well, because those assets help facilitate asale convert somebody at the top of the funnel by talking and understandingtheir problem e book nurture them along with an email sequence that includesinformation about your product and proof of success with other companies.It's what I consider to be the absolute foundational table stakes as far ascontent is concerned. All babbs companies want to scale. They all wantsome idea of what to do first in terms of content marketing, and so I'msolving for that and presenting it in a way. That is that recognizes that you don't haveprobably a budget to hire a VP marketing. You probably don't have abudget to go out and just hire any given B to be content creation agency-and you know, you're in essentially the same business right. Our resourcesallow for a fractional C Mo, not for you know, a complete agency, so yourfractional SMO has to be able to coach our team of Juniors, or you know it'sthe resorcin issue that I'm that I'm solving for, but also that coaching aninstruction that sort of walks people through and the reason why my e bookmore or less gives away the entire secret sauce is because this is designed for people whoare willing to put in a little bit of work. Of course, like you have to watchvideos, you have to complete creative briefs. You have to ideally you attenda coach and call so you can learn this stuff. There's still a lot of workinvolved in that piece, even if we're creating the content and I'm okay withgiving away the the road map and the steps necessary toget there in order to build that trust. There's a there's a medic opponent.Here I am eating my own dog food. I'm teaching these companies to shareinformation and to teach and to focus on solutions and transformations as away of building trust and converting more leads and getting sales and soeffectively that's what my marketing is doing. I have a twenty three page bookthat says it is exactly what we're going to do or twelve minute video.That's like Ye. Let's do mystify it for you. This is what we do. Then we builda landing page. Then we, I guess it's just my belief- that by sharing thatinformation and being the source of that information, improving my level ofexpertise will build trust and and convert more leads and to answer thethird or fourth part of your question. The response has been overwhelminglypositive. I still have you know my only generation challenges.I don't have as many sales calls in my calendar every week that I would loveto have paid acquisition and things...

...like that or leavers I'm still pulling.But I have tremendous success in sales. Calls I'm delighted to report, and sowhen, when I actually do present it to people and lay it out for them and justreassure them that we have a system that you can follow. I think theaccountability piece is big for a lot of people too. Right, like I want youto show up every week on a on a coaching call and we're going to talkabout the progress we made this week and we're going to talk about. Maybethe content we're creating for you and we're going to move from step three tostep for this week. The absence of that for especially for junior marketers orfor technical founders, who you know marketing, is a mystery to them this.You know. I guess it just sheds a little bit of light and helps them move along their continuum towardshaving established system into gaining momentum. Attraction I'll include links to the video and thee book in the show notes. One Five. I thank you for that back ten, very muchapreciate that we've been at home without a lot of time to watch Netlik,but I always ask my guess: Is There One book that you've read over the pastyear that has resonated fiction, nonfiction business, non business,anything come to mind. Can we choose just one a couple I'll give you twoI'll give you two I fiction book. I read seven eves by Neil Stevenson. Ijust loved it great story about what's kind of several stories in one and tobe honest, I like the first half better, but I just love that book. I went andread a whole bunch of his other books and it didn't. They didn't resonate aswell with me as the first and we I joke about it with my partner. It's like you're on page eight hundred and fiftya Vanleven, so novel, and it really starts getting good Yabu right now. I'mreading a book called Copy Writing Secrets by Jim Edwards and I almostfeel I don't want to say ashamed to admit that. But it's kind of that's me humbly admitting that I amconstantly sharpening the saw to use a Steven Covey reference. I want to get better at my craft andcreating B to be marketing. Content comes fairly naturally to me, whereascreating you know, direct response, advertisingcopy and things like that sales letters. The sort of thing that still performsvery well is something of a mystery to me: It's not a core confidency, and soI look for weaknesses in my own skill set and go looking for the trainingmaterial. So right now it's copywriters by Jim Edwards and I read three or fourpages to put myself to sleep every night. Okay, miraculously I retain theinformation, but it's a direct way to like something other than a screen tolook at to lull you to sleep. I think what you just said is probablyan important lesson for many marketers...

...sales people customer success, folks,because you can never stop learning the ability to improve your skills to getnew perspective. To do things better comes from curiosity and thewillingness to realize that there's other people out there who are not onlysmarter than you but have different opinions, and then that's a good placeto be. If people want to learn more about you and narrate, how can theyfind you online? The easiest place to start, I suppose, would be my websitenarrate creative. Virtually every link you find on the site, though, is goingto send you to either the free e book or an opportunity to book a call withme- and you know, if you find me unlinked inconnect with me there I'm very responsive to questions. I loveanswering questions. That's how I learn what hurts yeah start at Narat,creative com or at me on linked in and and don't be shy. I like I likeconversations. I crave interaction right now. We Ave a lot of people can probablyidentify with thanks Jordan for being such a great guest and your insightabout a variety of topic lad that we finally connected and great to have youon the podcast mark. Thank you very much for having me thanks for listening to another episodeof marketing sparks. If you enjoyed the conversation, neither review Isubscribed by, I tune potii or your favorite podcast, that if you'd like tolearn more about how I help peba companies as a fractional, Co, focaticoadvisor and coke, then in email to mark at Martins park, t col I'll talk to at t.

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