How Marketers Can Escape the MQL Hamster Wheel


Many B2B marketers are throttled by the need to generate MQLs.

Their campaigns and activities are measured by how many email addresses are collected and fed to an army of business development and sales reps.

Nelson Gilliat believes there's a better way.

The "Buyer-centric revenue" model allows marketers to do good and creative marketing that drives brand awareness and generates customer interest in your products.

At the same time, the buyer-centric revenue model eliminates a lot of the prospecting done by B2B SaaS companies.

It's cold outreach and cold-calling that bother prospects rather than engage and educate.

Nelson is the author of "Death of the SDR: Birth of Buyer Centric Revenue" 

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you'relistening to marketing spark. In many respects, marketers operate in straight jackets. It'sthings like MPL's gated content webinars designed to collect emails so drs can coldcalled prospects. Marketers use these techniques and channels because, well, everyone elseuses them. It's challenge. You take a different approach because they appear tobe safe and less risky. But Nelson Gilliot believes the predictable revenue model isoutdated and harmful. He believes marketers need to leverage and more fire friendly modelrather than wasting time with marketing that actually turns off buyers. Welcome to marketyou spark, Nelson. Yeah, Mar thanks so much for having me.Great to beer. Why don't we start with an obvious question. What isthe predictable revenue model and why is it outdated and harmful? You know,I wrote this book about two months ago called the death of the str andthe birth of bias and tric revenue, where I challenge the picture revenue modeland I introduce the biocentric revenue model as as a better alternative, and Ithink you introduced the kind of the problems pretty well where in marketing today alot of people are frustrated, they're having less productive and fulfilling careers because they'rein the strait jacket where they're forced to do things that they don't want todo and they know they shouldn't do, and the prevented from doing the thingsthat they want to do, and they know that works. And I thinkthat the source of these frustrations, a source of the problems with them bebe marketing. Why marketers are on this they called the mql hamster wheel?Why they all their budget resources? kind of has to be facilitating a lotof bad marketing, essentially, and you know, they're stuck between good marketingand bad marketing stuff, between old marketing and modern marketing, and the kindof in two worlds. And I think the the root source of that badmarketing in the old marketing is the particular revenue model, and that's what marketersneed to sort of liberate themselves from, as well as sellers. That bothkind of jammed in it together. And essentially the particuliar revenue model is thebe to be marketing and sales playbook that most be to be companies run onto some extent. I say to some extent because they don't take it straight. They're not only just doing the particular revenue model. Again, there's amixture. Companies can't just run on that model today. But essentially this playbookwas popularized in two thousand and eleven by Aaron Ross in his book particular revenue. But it is based on his time in the early two thousands at salesforce and this is sort of when the predicti revenue kind of came about inpractice. Was the late s early so just like keep that context in mindas we go through that. Today, marketers and sellers companies are running thisplaybook from the late the s early two thousands to some extent still today,despite all the changes we know with buy our preferences and in technology and whatmarketing can do nowadays. And so the essentially with the pretuil revenue model callsfor is two things. One is a marketing thing, the second is asales thing. The marketing thing is it calls for prospecting and it calls forprospecting to be done full time by strs...

...and no longer by sales. Salesused to do it. Now this and then rescue a long and said thatdoesn't make any sense. Let's have strs to it. So that's the marketingthing and marketing has to support strs right. Essentially, with strs are prospecting thing. It's a market thing. o The sales thing. It's to generateappointments for sales. We'll talk about that. The second thing that pretty even talksabout is a sales thing. So we'll leave that aside for the moment, you know, because this is a marketing audience, but just so peopleknow, it's the sales a sembiline, its seller specialization or buy our handoffs, where you know you have predominantly the slash CSM split, so a sellof the healths of the initial cell, then a seller that helps with theexpansion retention. In practice that's often further subdivided where you have, like youknow, the AE and then the sales engineer and then the CSM, theaccount manager, etc. Etc. And to some extent that does harm marketers, you know, down funnel. I think you know if markers are goingto help themselves accountable to revenue and conversion rates and sales cycle and not onlyto the initial sale but also to expansion retention, that if your sales comradesaren't doing well, then you know that's going to affect you. So butfor the moment, I think the crux of the problems be to be todayare prospecting in our strs, which is why the thrust of my book andWhy am I titled My Book Challenge, is that and why I think themthat is really why markers are chiefly suffering today. So I'll kind of pausethere with that kind of swipe at predictable revenue, and you see this anyreaction before kind of going on. So I'm sure that a lot of marketerswho are listening to this podcast are probably nodding their heads in violent agreement,because the reality is we are on a hamster wheel. A lot of marketershave to produce those mql's and that is, for better or worse, the keymetric that their performance is assessed upon. And they know there's a better way. They know that experimenting with different channels and different kinds of tools isa more creative and more interesting way to work. But at the same timethere's a lot of pressure on marketers to perform, and I put that inquotation mark that's why generating leads and feeding them to sales and bedrs and SDRsis the common approach. How do marketers break out of that? How dothey do prospecting that is more efficient, more productive and more successful? LongStory Short, I think they should stop doing prospecting all together and that youshould just do good marketing or good modern marketing and all. And basically,the way I see it, prospecting is the worst kind of marketing, whereit's essentially you're annoying buyers with telemarketing, email, spam and linkedin spam toget them to speak to sales, and that's essentially with the strs of doingthat's, you know, that's what prospecting is. And so today companies havea mixture between prospecting or this old kind of worst type of marketing, andthen modern demand Gen and so I see that strs and demand en are likecompeting against each other for budget resources and to see and who's doing, youknow, the right, good type of marketing who's doing the wrong, badtype of marketing, the outdated of type of marketing. And unfortunate a lotof marketers and demandain have to support the SDRs, while demand gender doing allthese good things like content, social media... and ADS and events and allthis good stuff. At the same time they have to support the strs todo their thing, and so that's where a lot of markers are frustrated andare on this mcu will hamster wheel. So what an empty all hamster willis and what mql really is? It is marketing or Demandin is forced toconstantly generate a high volume of contact information of uninterested buyers so that the strscan go and annoy them with prospecting. And that is why markers have toeither buy this contact information through contents indication or list purchases or whatever, orthey have to get their content, which you know, we know is terrible. You know, and produce, you know, crap content, a highquantity of it, just to try to get someone's email or their telephone number, you know, ebook downloads and whatnot, or your hosting events, you knowwebinars or panels or you know some it's just to get someone's contact informationso that then you then put them into an str aidence, which is awful. So it's like you know, you you're trying to like woo buyers byputting out content only that you can then hit him over the head with anstr sequence. So they say so they get turned off and they tune outand they don't keep coming back for more. So it's so, it's really,really bad, and that is and so that's what, that's what.That that is why markers often held accountable to this m ql thing, becausethey have to feed the SDR or if they have to feed that sort ofmachine, as opposed to marketers being held accountable to the metrics that really matter, like revenue and qualified pipeline, a number of sales, qualified opportunities andcost per opportunity, conversion rate, sales cycle cost, preposition costpar position paybackperiod, all that type of stuff. If markers were to be held accountableto that, it would really expose how bad prospecting is and how bad,you know, strs are. And so what I recommend today is, likea lot of companies don't realize how bad prospecting strs are because they don't distinguishit or separate it from the rest of their marking efforts. They blend whenthey look at like their marking efforts, they just blend and mash everything together. So they get blended cat blended, conversion rates blended this and that theydon't separate it. So then you don't realize how bad things are. Andso what I recommend that people do is, yeah, you kind of have toseparate prospecting from, let's say, website demo requests. The way Isee it is like marketing should be trying to woo buyers and the door allthe way to requesting a demo on the website to speak to sales and thatthat point, that's the handoff to sale. Some marking automatically qualifies them on thewebsite. Yeah, then sales enters the picture and not before then.Those are the hot leads, those are the layups, those are the efficientand effective marketing and sales efficiency process, whereas trying to jam junk through thepipeline is not good for marketing and it's definitely not good for sales, whichis one reason why a lot of sellers today are missing their revenue and whythere's marking sales alignment, because marketings producing junk, you know, mql's andstuffing, you know, a high quantity of low quality stuff of the pipeline, and then sales gets caught holding the bag. That's the that's the wholemystery behind the mislignment. It's all sales once. It's just good. He'syou know, so they can do their sales thing. They know they andsales is not want to be doing marketing.

And what I recommend for people todo is, you know, look into your crm and distinguish leads generatedfrom prospecting, from the STRs versus website, Demo request, and then compare thatto those metrics we talked about that matter, like revenue and conversion ratesand sales cycle and CAC, and then you can see like where you're gettingthe results from, which side your bread is buttered on. And then you, when you factor in the difference and resources that you're putting into SDRs andprospecting versus the resources you're putting into Demangen your kind of and strs a verytime capital and labor intensitive. It's no joke. That's why sometimes people outsourcethat, which doesn't make it any better. I just think it makes it,say, less harmful. But it's like so much focus and resources divertedaway from good morn marketing and into strs. And so I think when you factorthat in, plus the factor in the fact that buyers get turned offand tune out to the str outreach, and you can capture some of thatin your crm where it's like taking off your list on subscribe. Negative reaction? WHATNO, but a lot of it you don't see. You know howmuch? How much annoying outreach do you get that you don't really reply toand get get turned off to? So there's that cost. Then there's theopportunity costs right of not doing good modern marketing or demand Gen. You know, I think for a lot of marketers who want to break free and sortof be able to have the freedom in the resources to do good modern marketing, you're going to have to challenge the root cause, which is not theMQL, which is not the attribution craze, which is not the legend model,which is just the way of saying like that's just the legend models,just the process of generating mqls, but fundamentally upstream, the root quote causeof all it is the particular revenue model which still demands today that we havestr we still do prospecting, and so if you get rid of prospecting,you get rid of UST as you get rid of PDICT to revenue model,you then free yourself to be able to do the good modern marketing, tohave like the managend to let it do its thing and run all those goodplays. There's a lot to unpack from that answer. Let me get somequick answers to a few basic questions things that you brought up. What's goodmarketing and what's bad marketing? The standard for good marketing is basically you lookat revenue and qualified pipeline and those conversion in those metrics that matter, likeconversion rates and sales cycle, CAC and cact payback. That's how you determinemarketing efficiency as well as sales efficiency. So that's you know, they shouldhave very similar metrics, marketing and sales, so kind of keeping both at theHip and aligned. Basically what good marketing will look like instead, becauseagain, prospecting, all that is is tele a marketing, email, spamand linkedin spam and sometimes directmail or gift cards and exchange for Demo or bribery. Right, I think. But what good marketing looks like nowadays, primarilygiven the change in by our preferences and technology, is essentially the big playtoday is really good contact content marketing with really good distribution. And so youknow, whether that content is, you know, audio, written or visualor some Mashup of the two, it's entertaining, its educational, it's youknow, you're basically getting your message out there in front of your audience andthen distributing that wherever your audience is.

And all you know, with that'sLinkedin organic, whether that's to your email list of opttions on, you knowand Youtube, or you're putting paid ads behind it to distribute that content.Whatever, you're getting it out there. You know, all these social platformsthat didn't exist ten or fifteen years away, with the keep of mind that alot of the plays are able to Doday didn't exist a while ago whenpretty revenue was around, and so that's that's a big change. And sowhat markers can do today, where it's like, for example, you havea podcast and then you invite your audience on, you invite influencers on,so you're doing co marketing, influencer marketing. You then distribute that content on socialmedia, on Linkedin, and then you you tag people and then youget the network effect and all that type of stuff in your and you havegot this. The podcast is a great content pillar and then your guest podcastingshere and other people's podcast with audience that that they have doing events and you'redoing summits and round tables and panels and fireside chats and what on. Youbring it in speakers and influencers or you know, you're again, you cook, creating this type of content. You know, maybe have live audience inQa. So you're getting you're getting the folks that you want involved. Maybeyou're kind of creating a little community, or people keep come back for youmore and more content, your expertise, you know, your thought leadership,you know, just and they like you. They like you're maybe you're also someof your content is humorous or whatever, and it, you know, ithelps them to level up in their profession. That's how they become awareof you. That's how they then consider you. They'll check you out,the look at your company, the come to your website, the'll have aplay around. You know, recently I had no idea what metadata dot iowas, but they had a summit, like you know, called demand recentlyto know what they did, and I kind of the summit. Really enjoyedit. They had a bunch of good talks and then I checked out thatwebsite and I was like Oh, okay, conscious now I know what you doand if I ever have that need, I'll come to you and I'm notgoing to check out your competitors. I'd really like you, guys,and I keep seeing your content, you know, I keep I get yourads on facebook or on Linkedin and I've attended your event and I like yourstuff on linkedin organic and so that's just like that's how basically be to be. Buyers will talk to and maybe I'll talk to a few people about metadatathat I own, my network. You know, it's stuff like that.Is what marketing can do, and also the website is a seven seller thatmarketing owns. So it's like buyers want to do their own research, theywant to basically carry themselves pretty far along their buying journey and maybe at theend that's when they want to speak to sales if they need to. Sometimesthey just hit the buy button or whatever, but if they need sales help,then they ask for sales as help, and then that's where marketing comes inon the website and then it can say hey, you want to speakto sales? Yep, which is answer these few qualifying questions. Great,on the website, here you go, here's the seller's calendar and that allthat information of the Byar need is on the website. So you put thedemo recording, you put the pricing, or at least ballpark pricing. Youput you put that Faq, like all that type of stuff you just putout there in the website, because sometimes the bar isn't ready to kind ofgo to the whole song and dance with sales, but they just want thatinformation. So as long as you make that access on the website and helpeducate the buyer, almost I can beat to see where marketing is responsible forthe entire buyers journey. is how markers need to kind of sort of worktoday, where it's like yes, we have sales and we support ad sales, but we also need to like give the buyer as much information as thatthey need so once if and when they do need sales, they're like prettyfar along and it's a slam dunk.

So the other question I want toask you is the impact on marketing and marketers when companies do things like gatedcontent or webinars and people do provide their email addresses in some cases, almostimmediately the person who downloaded the acid or attend to the webinar will get anemail or a call from an str essentially saying hey, I noticed that youdid this and, as a result, wanted to see if you want tobook a demo. The way that I look at it, that's just anexpression of interest, like attending a webinars, okay, a curious or attending anevent like metadata. It's not an intent to purchase. And what isit? How does it make marketers feel and and how does it make consumersfeel? Because increasingly, I think a lot of consumers are annoyed by thosecold call outreach. Yeah, so where we are today is that we havekind of like a mashup right of both good marking Bat marketing, and sowhere the strs or the prospecting often comes in today is that market will doall this stuff to butter up and warm up prospects and put out this goodcontent and then then you'se kind of sick deck. Let the dogs lose,there's something like that, and you kind of stick the stairs on them toannoy these buyers and I think that's so awful. It's like, you know, you go to a bar, right and there's all these guys and you'retrying to woo the girl in the bar and so you put on the charm, you let her know what you're about, and at the end, you knowwhen she starts like you, then you're a jerk to her at theend and it's like you wonder why you never hear back or you know youweren't successful, and I think it's it's like that. That's a really that'sreally terrible. And so what's happening today is that Mark Wi due all thestuff, and then so cold lead intent or lead scoring or ABM. There'sjust a fancy way of saying, Hey, which of the uninterested buyers are wegoing to prioritize based on their content consumption, like who's coming to ourwebsite, who's checking out a reviews, who's coming to our events, who'sdownload our content? And then, based off that, who were we goingto annoy? Rather than saying, okay, you know, we're kind of seeingwho's doing what. That's kind of giving us feedback on our marketing.We can understand like which of our content is hot and what buyers are digging. Good. Letting these buyers continue to come back from a content continue toprovide value. They'll eventually come and hit that. You know, if theywant to speak to sales, they will request speak to sales and they'll maybethey'll share with other people. You're not turning them off and you're not tryingto force them prematurely. And the thing is like prematurely into a buying cyclewhen they're not interested in buying, because not only what you turn them offand they'll two now and the stop. Continue your content and those say,Oh, this is just the thinly veiled sales pitch, it's also, evenif you've managed to finagle them into a meeting, you're wasting sales as timebecause this person is in a buying cycle. They're just like you just pressured them. You know they'll just kick the tires a little bit or they didn'tknow how to say no to the str and so you basically then give salesjunk and that you know, it's like you know this person isn't actually interestedin buy it all. They just want to demo, which they probably couldhave just got one or the show just gone the website if they just wanteda demo. Yeah, I would say this kind of practice where it's socounterproduct active and it's some it's a shame because you know you're doing all thishard, good work marketers, only for the strs to come in and kindof ruin it at the end. and...

...not to mention it's like again,it's like St ours are really expensive to support them and to tie them,to train them, to coach and tools, and it's just and they turn overa lot and there's a cost to that and like it's a one ofthe things I recommend to kind of where people can kind of go from here. Ultimately, I think that str should be repurposed into other marketing activities thatare more productive and fulfilling, and so I would transition your strs to kindof be like entry level general marketing generalists that help with the content marketing andsocial media and demand Gen or product marketing, you know, or ops and stufflike that. Like just have them do other marketing tasks, and that'skind of essentially how I recommend that people transition, because I don't recommend thatyou let them go overnight. You know, that is a waste. You knowyou've got talent, you've got really good talent. You just need tounlock that town and get more productive use out of them, and so justhave them do better, better marketing. And there's a process that I kindof outline to people to kind of go from A to B and to helpwith that transition, to run with your bar analogy. It's like meeting someoneout of bar. You say hello, they say hello back and then yousay hey, you want to get married. That's kind of the way it isthese days, the kind of the way it feels. Let's shift gearsand talk about the buyercentric revenue model. I'm really curious about why is itbetter? How is it different and, as important, how to companies andmarketers transition from the traditional predictable revenue model to a buyer centric revenue model?And the one thing I will add before you answer is that there's a lotof chatter on linkedin another places about being customer centric, knowing your customers insideout. A lot of it is talk more than walk. You know,a lot of marketers say, Hey, it's important to know your customers.With that they never talked to them or even listen to sales calls. SoI will add that. But just a circle back. So what is theBier centric model. And how do you get started with it? How doyou how do you make it happen? So the Bier centric revenue model basicallysunsets prospecting in favor of demand jen or just proper, good modern marketing,and so you sunsets to ours and need sunset prospecting. And then it alsosunsets the buyer hand officer, sellar specialization or sales assembly line, although subdivisionof sales, where you have stunted sellers. And then this awful, you know, ring around the Rosie for buyers and bloated sales orgs, in favorof a one to one buyer cell relationship where seller is a full and completeseller and and has full ownership over the bier relationship and can loop in internalfolks as and what needed, whether it's like technical folks to help with expertiseor someone from amentation to customize the product. But fundamentally there's one seller for onerelationship and that's what sales is all about, building relationship. So you'llhave a more efficacious seller, I'll have a happier buyer and you have aleaner sales or. There's two other things I talked about my book that's relatesto the biasentric revenue that affects sales more. But again, I think if markingsales are going to be be at the hip and both be successful,if your sales team is suffering, you're going to suffer. And I thinkthat sales is suffering from to other woes, which are quotas and commissions, whichforce them to basically is a pressures...

...them and to do basically pressure thebuyer, which is a lose lose, and so just be aware of that. Marketers that like oftentimes, even if marketing has the freedom to do goodmarketing, if your sales leader is using quotas and commissions or sales assembly linelike that's going to, you know, try to pressure marketers to put junkthrough the funnel. You know that that's something that markers really need to understandand be aware of. It's not just that marketing is in its own worldand has its own problems, it's that sales problems will bleed into marketings problemsand so that. Yeah, so you will encounter resistance, let's say,from mark from sales sometimes because the sales leaders, just like I, justneed them. I need to keep my celler's busy with junk, so giveme junk, and that's and you don't want that. I called at theBier centric revenue model because the particular even models so anti Bire. It's likeso misaligne with how biers want to be marketed to and sold to and thatif sale marketing sales want to be successful, we have to conform to to thebubble buyer. Since that's not the case, we've set up marking salesfor failure and not success, which is why marking cell sales are suffering today. There's high turnover, low ten year low proactivity, low performance, lowjob satisfaction across the board. There's a lot of frustration, no freedom todo to the stuff that we want to do and can do and should do. You know, in terms of helping people transition, I recommend there's athere's like a three or four step process. So obviously, like you know,grab hopefully grab my books. You have a more context around it inthe theory and whatnot, and I also can lay the stuff all out.So with the theory, then the first step is to gather the data yourown company. So look into your crm, do that kind of test where youseparate the leads from strs and prospecting from demandain leads or website em request. Look to revenue and those conversion and conversion rates and sales like all thosemetrics that matter. First calculate that. Then calculate the resources that go intoSt ours versus the resources that go into demandagin consider the the what the theharm that it does to barers and to your brand doing that prospecting and knowingbars like that. Then use that data and and take this theory and proposean experiment to the board, to the CEO and to say, Hey,here's the harm of what's going on and here's the solution, like here's whatI want to do instead. So it's really important when you point out thebad you also show hey, here's what I want to do instead. Soevery C I was like great, I get you know, I get howbad it is. What's the solution? So don't be a complainer. Justsay, Hey, we think that's stairs really bad or the prospecting is reallybad, but we got nothing to to do better than that. They're gonnabe like you got to come back with something. Show them the good markand the good moral market and what you want to do instead, but youneed the freedom in the resources to do it and that that will produce betteroutcomes of what the business really wants, which is revenue and qualified pipeline andall that type of stuff and better when wags and better sale cycles etc.Propose a pilot. Gather your allies to propose this pilot from marketing, fromsales, from finance, from operations. So make sure you kind of havea type case and propose that to the see I opposed that to the board. Pose that to the CMO or to you know, whoever you know you'rereporting in to propose a two step experiment, and the first step is to automatedemo request qualification and demo scheduling right...

...on the website, so rather thanhaving an str manually qualify buyers you know and then do this whole ring aroundthe rosy and again, these are people who are knocking on the door.So you got people who knocking or say hey, I want to speak tosales and then you don't answer that for a while and you give them anawful experience and then you wonder why they never make it into the house andstay as a customer and there's a lot of stats out there. It's likeseventy percent of those buyers, if they have an str manly qualifying them,never actually make it sales. So it's like this is the high intent likebottom, like juicy stops. This isn't great wind, guys. So,like automate that on the website. You can easy do on the website andpropose that as the first experiment and then meanwhile repurpose those strs who are whoare doing that, to whatever extent they were, to other productive marketing activities. They'll be thrilled because that will that's the more like s to yours.Do not want to be strs. They hate it. They can't wait toescape. They would be so thrilled to do that. In addition, givehim quarter relief, in other words, pay them the full amount that thesupposed to get paid their otee and give them quite a relief. And,you know, just say hey, this is experiment, we're go going torun this and then run this for maybe a few like one, two,three sales cycles so that you can then see the results and track it overtime. Do that, so whether that's three, six and nine months whatever, and then boom, okay, great, you'll see, we're going to automatethat. That's the low hanging fruit. And now we've repurposed strs to dogood marking. So now they're helping out with good marketing. They're doingmore content, that doing more demanda and that doing more social product marketing,whatever. Help me out with events, help me out with ads, youknow, the paid ads on you know, all the different channels that you cando to get your message out there. Whatever. The second part of thatexperiment is to gradually reduce their prospecting outreach. So gradually reduce their telemarketing, their email spam and the linkedin spam by twenty five percent increments. Ifyou're supposed to make, you know, a hundred calls a day, whichis kind of typical, you, you know, have at make seventy fivecalls to day, and then meanwhile gradually repurpose them to other marketing activities andthen give them quarter relief again. They'll be thrilled and then you're helping todo more good marketing and reducing the harm of the bad marketing. And thendo this for a few sale cycles and then continue to do that until youno longer basically until you fully sunset prospecting in favor of good, proper,modern marketing, and you'll see your the revenue will go up, your conversionrates will improve, your sale cycles will improve, you know all those metrics. Your cosprequisition will improve, and then and then you kind of have provenyou know that that's the that's that that ought to be done. And meanwhileyou rescue your strs, you help them, really help them find more productive,filling careers, which again they're trying to do as soon as possible.You're just accelerating that. And now you've liberated yourself to be have the freedomin the resources to do the good marketing, to get off them kill Hampshield,to only produce website demo request that you automatically qualify, to be ableto do with the content plays that you want to do in the podcast andthe thought lead shift and Linkedin organic and the paidads and all the different channelsand the events and all the sort of stuff. And you can do moreor creative marketing. So a lot of markers can't be created. You canto the arts and craft stuff. Would do the humor stuff. You can'tdo all the stuff that really sets you apart because you don't have time forany of that because you just supposed to kind of be on this mcuel Hamswheel. So, like, how the...

...hell can you be creative and standout when you're just having to produce like enough contact information for that shows toannoy. I think at that's the sort of ideal that you should be strivingfor and that's sort of why it's worth fighting for and why it's worth challengingthe particular revenue model and presenting a different model and trying to test that outand experiment at Your own company with it. Now, if your see, Iwas not about it, if you get it, if they're just notdown for it, then that should tell you something like you can continue tostruggle at a company and a face an uphill battle and constantly fight to dogood marketing, or find folks who are game and who are willing, findcompanies who who are down for you to have the freedom to do good marketing, and those will be the companies that win. Those are going to bethe companies that have a massive competitive advantages are able to attract better marketing,sales talent and attract buyers. If you try to do the stuff, andI'll ultimate in the end of the day, you you hit a brick wall,then yeah, then that's to be a signal that maybe that company isnot for you. I know that was a lot. I saw kind ofpause there. I kind of went on a ran, as I often do, so I'll throw it back to you mark. The other question that Iwant to ask you as a linement beweint between marketing and sales. In manycases they operate in stilos. They don't talk to each other, they don'tcollaborate, they don't share ideas, they don't they don't share information. Alot of information actually sits in the CRM, which sales may access and marketing mayfeed information into, or or maybe there may be auto feed of information. How do you get marketing and sales to operate as collaborative, cohesive units? How do you make sure that they move forward and locksteps so that it'sa virtuous circle between marketing sales? They're sharing of information. There's a sensethat their their teammates as opposed to opposing forces, and that's the reality formany organizations. How does that happen? How to marketing sales aligned so thatone plus one equals three? Yeah, so basically, once you you justgo bowling together and it's solves everything. That's it now. Yeah. Sothey answer to that really is again in the model and the particular reveny model, if misaligns marketing with sales, because again, it for it, itKepis, I would say it, quote unquote, key performance indicative for marketingis is producing junk contact information with this yards to go and annoy, andthen sales is revenue and everything else. And so there's that natural asalignment inthe BIOS such a remnty model. Marketing sales both have the same goals andkeep eyes, which is revenue and qualified pipeline, you know, sales opportunities, cost opportunities, sales cycle, conversion rates, Kak payback. So thenyou both joined at the same hip. You're both aligned in the same metricsand the same goals. That's that's that's the key right there. And thenit's marketing. Having the freedom in the resources to do good marketing and drivewebsite demo requests to sales, because sales is not want to do bad manualmarketing. They do not want to do prospect and they don't want to goout and chase buyers. They want to help buyers who want their help toto evaluate, purchase, implement, be successful, buy more and renew.So keep in mind, folks, that like prospecting, is something that salesused to do way back in the day...

...when marketing was unable to connect withbuyers and so they had the sales peo will basically be like field marketers andgo knock on doors, and then eventually that door knocking became telemarketing. Thatwould tell marking was door knocking too, and then that's kind of where saleswould do this kind of bad manual marketing stuff. Today that is no longerthe case, and so you can liberate sales also from having to do thisprospecting, bad manal marketing drudgery, which is what, by the way,I know I've been knocking pretict the revenue model, but just to get particularmodel credit where credit is due. They liberated sales from having to do thatin addition to the sales job, and so they created the strs, whichis essentially the marketing function, you know, to do that full time, eventhough aspiring sellers. Anyone who wants again to sales kind of got stuckinto that. So it's anyone who wants to do sales, so they hasto kind of go through this year of Hell and misery, which is stillkind of screws over sales and one of the reasons why sales is still denigrade. In sales is very undesirable, I think today. And B Tob,sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought there because I kind ofwent on a tangent. Maybe you can reorient me just in terms of makingsure that marketing and sales are Oh yeah, yeah, thank you. So,you know, I think that you give marking the freedom to get thosedemo requests and you give these layups, these good leads to sales of peoplewho are actively in buy mode more likely to buy and buy fast. That'sall that sales wants, and then that's kind of where you get the trust, you know, from your from your sales team, to be like yeah, marketing is pretty using good stuff and marketing is great. Marketing is crushingit fundamentally. That the then everything else that kind of happens with marketing salesis kind of like icing on the cake, where it's like, okay, youmeet with your sales seeing regular and you get feedback on the leads andyou're hopefully doing some attribution al ready to kind of know like what marketing isshould be doing more of. So it's like you're asking Barers, for examplein your website, how they heard about you, and you're also you maybelistening to sales calls or stuff like that, or you're doing qualitative interviews with yourbuyers, with your customers. You know, your best customers are Christmasthat just bought or people that are speaking sales of people you know, maybepeople that never heard of you, to kind of see like hey, what'sworking, what's not, how we touch up our messaging or positioning whatever,and then, you know, you kind of getting feedback from sales as tolike, you know, what are the buyers questions? where the reservations,where their hesitations, like what's kind of sales is? You know, oftentalking to buyers, and so then you that can inform your marketing efforts.That's the icing on the cake, that's the gravy that you can't fundamentally,again, it's the KPIS, it's the metrics, it's the producing good leadsfor sales, then it's like yeah, getting feedback from sales and kind ofregularly being in chats with them and things like that, and that's how you'llget marketing in sales alignment, which is so lacking today because that foundation isn'tin place because the particular of them all. Well, thanks for all your greatinsight. This was a really enjoyable and educational conversation. One final question. Where can people learn about more about you, what you do and and, as important, your book? Can find me on Linkedin, Nelson Gilliatand, you know, putting out content on this stuff, kind of tryingto break it down into some more digestible pieces, and they're still rants.They're just friends on you know, Linkedin and written form, and then youcan and find the book on Amazon. Again, it's the death of thestr and the birth of biers and Rick Revenue. So you can see longform and more context and stuff like that. You can reach out to me ifyou just kind of want to chat about it, if you're sort ofchewing on this and you kind of want... understand like more about the modeland or how to do it at your own company and stuff like that.I've also kind of soft launched consultancy to help people who kind of want helpwith menting that model. So I found by US and trick revenue. Youknow, if you actually need like proper help kind of doing it, Ican help with that. But yeah, Linkedin and that's where we can definitelyconnect and would be happy to chat with anyone. Thanks for listening to anotherepisode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review.Five Stars of course, subscribe by Apple Podcast, spotify or your favorite podcastAPP and share via social media. To learn more, how I help meto be SASS companies as a fractional cmostrategic advisor coach. Send an email tomark at marketing sparkcom. Connect with me on linked in. I'll talk toyou.

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