How Marketers Can Escape the MQL Hamster Wheel


Many B2B marketers are throttled by the need to generate MQLs.

Their campaigns and activities are measured by how many email addresses are collected and fed to an army of business development and sales reps.

Nelson Gilliat believes there's a better way.

The "Buyer-centric revenue" model allows marketers to do good and creative marketing that drives brand awareness and generates customer interest in your products.

At the same time, the buyer-centric revenue model eliminates a lot of the prospecting done by B2B SaaS companies.

It's cold outreach and cold-calling that bother prospects rather than engage and educate.

Nelson is the author of "Death of the SDR: Birth of Buyer Centric Revenue" 

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you're listening to marketing spark. In many respects, marketers operate in straight jackets. It's things like MPL's gated content webinars designed to collect emails so drs can cold called prospects. Marketers use these techniques and channels because, well, everyone else uses them. It's challenge. You take a different approach because they appear to be safe and less risky. But Nelson Gilliot believes the predictable revenue model is outdated and harmful. He believes marketers need to leverage and more fire friendly model rather than wasting time with marketing that actually turns off buyers. Welcome to market you spark, Nelson. Yeah, Mar thanks so much for having me. Great to beer. Why don't we start with an obvious question. What is the predictable revenue model and why is it outdated and harmful? You know, I wrote this book about two months ago called the death of the str and the birth of bias and tric revenue, where I challenge the picture revenue model and I introduce the biocentric revenue model as as a better alternative, and I think you introduced the kind of the problems pretty well where in marketing today a lot of people are frustrated, they're having less productive and fulfilling careers because they're in the strait jacket where they're forced to do things that they don't want to do and they know they shouldn't do, and the prevented from doing the things that they want to do, and they know that works. And I think that the source of these frustrations, a source of the problems with them be be marketing. Why marketers are on this they called the mql hamster wheel? Why they all their budget resources? kind of has to be facilitating a lot of bad marketing, essentially, and you know, they're stuck between good marketing and bad marketing stuff, between old marketing and modern marketing, and the kind of in two worlds. And I think the the root source of that bad marketing in the old marketing is the particular revenue model, and that's what marketers need to sort of liberate themselves from, as well as sellers. That both kind of jammed in it together. And essentially the particuliar revenue model is the be to be marketing and sales playbook that most be to be companies run on to some extent. I say to some extent because they don't take it straight. They're not only just doing the particular revenue model. Again, there's a mixture. Companies can't just run on that model today. But essentially this playbook was popularized in two thousand and eleven by Aaron Ross in his book particular revenue. But it is based on his time in the early two thousands at sales force and this is sort of when the predicti revenue kind of came about in practice. Was the late s early so just like keep that context in mind as we go through that. Today, marketers and sellers companies are running this playbook from the late the s early two thousands to some extent still today, despite all the changes we know with buy our preferences and in technology and what marketing can do nowadays. And so the essentially with the pretuil revenue model calls for is two things. One is a marketing thing, the second is a sales thing. The marketing thing is it calls for prospecting and it calls for prospecting to be done full time by strs...

...and no longer by sales. Sales used to do it. Now this and then rescue a long and said that doesn't make any sense. Let's have strs to it. So that's the marketing thing and marketing has to support strs right. Essentially, with strs are prospecting thing. It's a market thing. o The sales thing. It's to generate appointments for sales. We'll talk about that. The second thing that pretty even talks about is a sales thing. So we'll leave that aside for the moment, you know, because this is a marketing audience, but just so people know, it's the sales a sembiline, its seller specialization or buy our handoffs, where you know you have predominantly the slash CSM split, so a sell of the healths of the initial cell, then a seller that helps with the expansion retention. In practice that's often further subdivided where you have, like you know, the AE and then the sales engineer and then the CSM, the account manager, etc. Etc. And to some extent that does harm marketers, you know, down funnel. I think you know if markers are going to help themselves accountable to revenue and conversion rates and sales cycle and not only to the initial sale but also to expansion retention, that if your sales comrades aren't doing well, then you know that's going to affect you. So but for the moment, I think the crux of the problems be to be today are prospecting in our strs, which is why the thrust of my book and Why am I titled My Book Challenge, is that and why I think them that is really why markers are chiefly suffering today. So I'll kind of pause there with that kind of swipe at predictable revenue, and you see this any reaction before kind of going on. So I'm sure that a lot of marketers who are listening to this podcast are probably nodding their heads in violent agreement, because the reality is we are on a hamster wheel. A lot of marketers have to produce those mql's and that is, for better or worse, the key metric that their performance is assessed upon. And they know there's a better way. They know that experimenting with different channels and different kinds of tools is a more creative and more interesting way to work. But at the same time there's a lot of pressure on marketers to perform, and I put that in quotation mark that's why generating leads and feeding them to sales and bedrs and SDRs is the common approach. How do marketers break out of that? How do they do prospecting that is more efficient, more productive and more successful? Long Story Short, I think they should stop doing prospecting all together and that you should just do good marketing or good modern marketing and all. And basically, the way I see it, prospecting is the worst kind of marketing, where it's essentially you're annoying buyers with telemarketing, email, spam and linkedin spam to get them to speak to sales, and that's essentially with the strs of doing that's, you know, that's what prospecting is. And so today companies have a mixture between prospecting or this old kind of worst type of marketing, and then modern demand Gen and so I see that strs and demand en are like competing against each other for budget resources and to see and who's doing, you know, the right, good type of marketing who's doing the wrong, bad type of marketing, the outdated of type of marketing. And unfortunate a lot of marketers and demandain have to support the SDRs, while demand gender doing all these good things like content, social media... and ADS and events and all this good stuff. At the same time they have to support the strs to do their thing, and so that's where a lot of markers are frustrated and are on this mcu will hamster wheel. So what an empty all hamster will is and what mql really is? It is marketing or Demandin is forced to constantly generate a high volume of contact information of uninterested buyers so that the strs can go and annoy them with prospecting. And that is why markers have to either buy this contact information through contents indication or list purchases or whatever, or they have to get their content, which you know, we know is terrible. You know, and produce, you know, crap content, a high quantity of it, just to try to get someone's email or their telephone number, you know, ebook downloads and whatnot, or your hosting events, you know webinars or panels or you know some it's just to get someone's contact information so that then you then put them into an str aidence, which is awful. So it's like you know, you you're trying to like woo buyers by putting out content only that you can then hit him over the head with an str sequence. So they say so they get turned off and they tune out and they don't keep coming back for more. So it's so, it's really, really bad, and that is and so that's what, that's what. That that is why markers often held accountable to this m ql thing, because they have to feed the SDR or if they have to feed that sort of machine, as opposed to marketers being held accountable to the metrics that really matter, like revenue and qualified pipeline, a number of sales, qualified opportunities and cost per opportunity, conversion rate, sales cycle cost, preposition costpar position payback period, all that type of stuff. If markers were to be held accountable to that, it would really expose how bad prospecting is and how bad, you know, strs are. And so what I recommend today is, like a lot of companies don't realize how bad prospecting strs are because they don't distinguish it or separate it from the rest of their marking efforts. They blend when they look at like their marking efforts, they just blend and mash everything together. So they get blended cat blended, conversion rates blended this and that they don't separate it. So then you don't realize how bad things are. And so what I recommend that people do is, yeah, you kind of have to separate prospecting from, let's say, website demo requests. The way I see it is like marketing should be trying to woo buyers and the door all the way to requesting a demo on the website to speak to sales and that that point, that's the handoff to sale. Some marking automatically qualifies them on the website. Yeah, then sales enters the picture and not before then. Those are the hot leads, those are the layups, those are the efficient and effective marketing and sales efficiency process, whereas trying to jam junk through the pipeline is not good for marketing and it's definitely not good for sales, which is one reason why a lot of sellers today are missing their revenue and why there's marking sales alignment, because marketings producing junk, you know, mql's and stuffing, you know, a high quantity of low quality stuff of the pipeline, and then sales gets caught holding the bag. That's the that's the whole mystery behind the mislignment. It's all sales once. It's just good. He's you know, so they can do their sales thing. They know they and sales is not want to be doing marketing.

And what I recommend for people to do is, you know, look into your crm and distinguish leads generated from prospecting, from the STRs versus website, Demo request, and then compare that to those metrics we talked about that matter, like revenue and conversion rates and sales cycle and CAC, and then you can see like where you're getting the results from, which side your bread is buttered on. And then you, when you factor in the difference and resources that you're putting into SDRs and prospecting versus the resources you're putting into Demangen your kind of and strs a very time capital and labor intensitive. It's no joke. That's why sometimes people outsource that, which doesn't make it any better. I just think it makes it, say, less harmful. But it's like so much focus and resources diverted away from good morn marketing and into strs. And so I think when you factor that in, plus the factor in the fact that buyers get turned off and tune out to the str outreach, and you can capture some of that in your crm where it's like taking off your list on subscribe. Negative reaction? WHATNO, but a lot of it you don't see. You know how much? How much annoying outreach do you get that you don't really reply to and get get turned off to? So there's that cost. Then there's the opportunity costs right of not doing good modern marketing or demand Gen. You know, I think for a lot of marketers who want to break free and sort of be able to have the freedom in the resources to do good modern marketing, you're going to have to challenge the root cause, which is not the MQL, which is not the attribution craze, which is not the legend model, which is just the way of saying like that's just the legend models, just the process of generating mqls, but fundamentally upstream, the root quote cause of all it is the particular revenue model which still demands today that we have str we still do prospecting, and so if you get rid of prospecting, you get rid of UST as you get rid of PDICT to revenue model, you then free yourself to be able to do the good modern marketing, to have like the managend to let it do its thing and run all those good plays. There's a lot to unpack from that answer. Let me get some quick answers to a few basic questions things that you brought up. What's good marketing and what's bad marketing? The standard for good marketing is basically you look at revenue and qualified pipeline and those conversion in those metrics that matter, like conversion rates and sales cycle, CAC and cact payback. That's how you determine marketing efficiency as well as sales efficiency. So that's you know, they should have very similar metrics, marketing and sales, so kind of keeping both at the Hip and aligned. Basically what good marketing will look like instead, because again, prospecting, all that is is tele a marketing, email, spam and linkedin spam and sometimes directmail or gift cards and exchange for Demo or bribery. Right, I think. But what good marketing looks like nowadays, primarily given the change in by our preferences and technology, is essentially the big play today is really good contact content marketing with really good distribution. And so you know, whether that content is, you know, audio, written or visual or some Mashup of the two, it's entertaining, its educational, it's you know, you're basically getting your message out there in front of your audience and then distributing that wherever your audience is.

And all you know, with that's Linkedin organic, whether that's to your email list of opttions on, you know and Youtube, or you're putting paid ads behind it to distribute that content. Whatever, you're getting it out there. You know, all these social platforms that didn't exist ten or fifteen years away, with the keep of mind that a lot of the plays are able to Doday didn't exist a while ago when pretty revenue was around, and so that's that's a big change. And so what markers can do today, where it's like, for example, you have a podcast and then you invite your audience on, you invite influencers on, so you're doing co marketing, influencer marketing. You then distribute that content on social media, on Linkedin, and then you you tag people and then you get the network effect and all that type of stuff in your and you have got this. The podcast is a great content pillar and then your guest podcastings here and other people's podcast with audience that that they have doing events and you're doing summits and round tables and panels and fireside chats and what on. You bring it in speakers and influencers or you know, you're again, you cook, creating this type of content. You know, maybe have live audience in Qa. So you're getting you're getting the folks that you want involved. Maybe you're kind of creating a little community, or people keep come back for you more and more content, your expertise, you know, your thought leadership, you know, just and they like you. They like you're maybe you're also some of your content is humorous or whatever, and it, you know, it helps them to level up in their profession. That's how they become aware of you. That's how they then consider you. They'll check you out, the look at your company, the come to your website, the'll have a play around. You know, recently I had no idea what metadata dot io was, but they had a summit, like you know, called demand recently to know what they did, and I kind of the summit. Really enjoyed it. They had a bunch of good talks and then I checked out that website and I was like Oh, okay, conscious now I know what you do and if I ever have that need, I'll come to you and I'm not going to check out your competitors. I'd really like you, guys, and I keep seeing your content, you know, I keep I get your ads on facebook or on Linkedin and I've attended your event and I like your stuff on linkedin organic and so that's just like that's how basically be to be. Buyers will talk to and maybe I'll talk to a few people about metadata that I own, my network. You know, it's stuff like that. Is what marketing can do, and also the website is a seven seller that marketing owns. So it's like buyers want to do their own research, they want to basically carry themselves pretty far along their buying journey and maybe at the end that's when they want to speak to sales if they need to. Sometimes they just hit the buy button or whatever, but if they need sales help, then they ask for sales as help, and then that's where marketing comes in on the website and then it can say hey, you want to speak to sales? Yep, which is answer these few qualifying questions. Great, on the website, here you go, here's the seller's calendar and that all that information of the Byar need is on the website. So you put the demo recording, you put the pricing, or at least ballpark pricing. You put you put that Faq, like all that type of stuff you just put out there in the website, because sometimes the bar isn't ready to kind of go to the whole song and dance with sales, but they just want that information. So as long as you make that access on the website and help educate the buyer, almost I can beat to see where marketing is responsible for the entire buyers journey. is how markers need to kind of sort of work today, where it's like yes, we have sales and we support ad sales, but we also need to like give the buyer as much information as that they need so once if and when they do need sales, they're like pretty far along and it's a slam dunk.

So the other question I want to ask you is the impact on marketing and marketers when companies do things like gated content or webinars and people do provide their email addresses in some cases, almost immediately the person who downloaded the acid or attend to the webinar will get an email or a call from an str essentially saying hey, I noticed that you did this and, as a result, wanted to see if you want to book a demo. The way that I look at it, that's just an expression of interest, like attending a webinars, okay, a curious or attending an event like metadata. It's not an intent to purchase. And what is it? How does it make marketers feel and and how does it make consumers feel? Because increasingly, I think a lot of consumers are annoyed by those cold call outreach. Yeah, so where we are today is that we have kind of like a mashup right of both good marking Bat marketing, and so where the strs or the prospecting often comes in today is that market will do all this stuff to butter up and warm up prospects and put out this good content and then then you'se kind of sick deck. Let the dogs lose, there's something like that, and you kind of stick the stairs on them to annoy these buyers and I think that's so awful. It's like, you know, you go to a bar, right and there's all these guys and you're trying to woo the girl in the bar and so you put on the charm, you let her know what you're about, and at the end, you know when she starts like you, then you're a jerk to her at the end and it's like you wonder why you never hear back or you know you weren't successful, and I think it's it's like that. That's a really that's really terrible. And so what's happening today is that Mark Wi due all the stuff, and then so cold lead intent or lead scoring or ABM. There's just a fancy way of saying, Hey, which of the uninterested buyers are we going to prioritize based on their content consumption, like who's coming to our website, who's checking out a reviews, who's coming to our events, who's download our content? And then, based off that, who were we going to annoy? Rather than saying, okay, you know, we're kind of seeing who's doing what. That's kind of giving us feedback on our marketing. We can understand like which of our content is hot and what buyers are digging. Good. Letting these buyers continue to come back from a content continue to provide value. They'll eventually come and hit that. You know, if they want to speak to sales, they will request speak to sales and they'll maybe they'll share with other people. You're not turning them off and you're not trying to force them prematurely. And the thing is like prematurely into a buying cycle when they're not interested in buying, because not only what you turn them off and they'll two now and the stop. Continue your content and those say, Oh, this is just the thinly veiled sales pitch, it's also, even if you've managed to finagle them into a meeting, you're wasting sales as time because this person is in a buying cycle. They're just like you just pressured them. You know they'll just kick the tires a little bit or they didn't know how to say no to the str and so you basically then give sales junk and that you know, it's like you know this person isn't actually interested in buy it all. They just want to demo, which they probably could have just got one or the show just gone the website if they just wanted a demo. Yeah, I would say this kind of practice where it's so counterproduct active and it's some it's a shame because you know you're doing all this hard, good work marketers, only for the strs to come in and kind of ruin it at the end. and...

...not to mention it's like again, it's like St ours are really expensive to support them and to tie them, to train them, to coach and tools, and it's just and they turn over a lot and there's a cost to that and like it's a one of the things I recommend to kind of where people can kind of go from here. Ultimately, I think that str should be repurposed into other marketing activities that are more productive and fulfilling, and so I would transition your strs to kind of be like entry level general marketing generalists that help with the content marketing and social media and demand Gen or product marketing, you know, or ops and stuff like that. Like just have them do other marketing tasks, and that's kind of essentially how I recommend that people transition, because I don't recommend that you let them go overnight. You know, that is a waste. You know you've got talent, you've got really good talent. You just need to unlock that town and get more productive use out of them, and so just have them do better, better marketing. And there's a process that I kind of outline to people to kind of go from A to B and to help with that transition, to run with your bar analogy. It's like meeting someone out of bar. You say hello, they say hello back and then you say hey, you want to get married. That's kind of the way it is these days, the kind of the way it feels. Let's shift gears and talk about the buyercentric revenue model. I'm really curious about why is it better? How is it different and, as important, how to companies and marketers transition from the traditional predictable revenue model to a buyer centric revenue model? And the one thing I will add before you answer is that there's a lot of chatter on linkedin another places about being customer centric, knowing your customers inside out. A lot of it is talk more than walk. You know, a lot of marketers say, Hey, it's important to know your customers. With that they never talked to them or even listen to sales calls. So I will add that. But just a circle back. So what is the Bier centric model. And how do you get started with it? How do you how do you make it happen? So the Bier centric revenue model basically sunsets prospecting in favor of demand jen or just proper, good modern marketing, and so you sunsets to ours and need sunset prospecting. And then it also sunsets the buyer hand officer, sellar specialization or sales assembly line, although subdivision of sales, where you have stunted sellers. And then this awful, you know, ring around the Rosie for buyers and bloated sales orgs, in favor of a one to one buyer cell relationship where seller is a full and complete seller and and has full ownership over the bier relationship and can loop in internal folks as and what needed, whether it's like technical folks to help with expertise or someone from amentation to customize the product. But fundamentally there's one seller for one relationship and that's what sales is all about, building relationship. So you'll have a more efficacious seller, I'll have a happier buyer and you have a leaner sales or. There's two other things I talked about my book that's relates to the biasentric revenue that affects sales more. But again, I think if marking sales are going to be be at the hip and both be successful, if your sales team is suffering, you're going to suffer. And I think that sales is suffering from to other woes, which are quotas and commissions, which force them to basically is a pressures...

...them and to do basically pressure the buyer, which is a lose lose, and so just be aware of that. Marketers that like oftentimes, even if marketing has the freedom to do good marketing, if your sales leader is using quotas and commissions or sales assembly line like that's going to, you know, try to pressure marketers to put junk through the funnel. You know that that's something that markers really need to understand and be aware of. It's not just that marketing is in its own world and has its own problems, it's that sales problems will bleed into marketings problems and so that. Yeah, so you will encounter resistance, let's say, from mark from sales sometimes because the sales leaders, just like I, just need them. I need to keep my celler's busy with junk, so give me junk, and that's and you don't want that. I called at the Bier centric revenue model because the particular even models so anti Bire. It's like so misaligne with how biers want to be marketed to and sold to and that if sale marketing sales want to be successful, we have to conform to to the bubble buyer. Since that's not the case, we've set up marking sales for failure and not success, which is why marking cell sales are suffering today. There's high turnover, low ten year low proactivity, low performance, low job satisfaction across the board. There's a lot of frustration, no freedom to do to the stuff that we want to do and can do and should do. You know, in terms of helping people transition, I recommend there's a there's like a three or four step process. So obviously, like you know, grab hopefully grab my books. You have a more context around it in the theory and whatnot, and I also can lay the stuff all out. So with the theory, then the first step is to gather the data your own company. So look into your crm, do that kind of test where you separate the leads from strs and prospecting from demandain leads or website em request. Look to revenue and those conversion and conversion rates and sales like all those metrics that matter. First calculate that. Then calculate the resources that go into St ours versus the resources that go into demandagin consider the the what the the harm that it does to barers and to your brand doing that prospecting and knowing bars like that. Then use that data and and take this theory and propose an experiment to the board, to the CEO and to say, Hey, here's the harm of what's going on and here's the solution, like here's what I want to do instead. So it's really important when you point out the bad you also show hey, here's what I want to do instead. So every C I was like great, I get you know, I get how bad it is. What's the solution? So don't be a complainer. Just say, Hey, we think that's stairs really bad or the prospecting is really bad, but we got nothing to to do better than that. They're gonna be like you got to come back with something. Show them the good mark and the good moral market and what you want to do instead, but you need the freedom in the resources to do it and that that will produce better outcomes of what the business really wants, which is revenue and qualified pipeline and all that type of stuff and better when wags and better sale cycles etc. Propose a pilot. Gather your allies to propose this pilot from marketing, from sales, from finance, from operations. So make sure you kind of have a type case and propose that to the see I opposed that to the board. Pose that to the CMO or to you know, whoever you know you're reporting in to propose a two step experiment, and the first step is to automate demo request qualification and demo scheduling right...

...on the website, so rather than having an str manually qualify buyers you know and then do this whole ring around the rosy and again, these are people who are knocking on the door. So you got people who knocking or say hey, I want to speak to sales and then you don't answer that for a while and you give them an awful experience and then you wonder why they never make it into the house and stay as a customer and there's a lot of stats out there. It's like seventy percent of those buyers, if they have an str manly qualifying them, never actually make it sales. So it's like this is the high intent like bottom, like juicy stops. This isn't great wind, guys. So, like automate that on the website. You can easy do on the website and propose that as the first experiment and then meanwhile repurpose those strs who are who are doing that, to whatever extent they were, to other productive marketing activities. They'll be thrilled because that will that's the more like s to yours. Do not want to be strs. They hate it. They can't wait to escape. They would be so thrilled to do that. In addition, give him quarter relief, in other words, pay them the full amount that the supposed to get paid their otee and give them quite a relief. And, you know, just say hey, this is experiment, we're go going to run this and then run this for maybe a few like one, two, three sales cycles so that you can then see the results and track it over time. Do that, so whether that's three, six and nine months whatever, and then boom, okay, great, you'll see, we're going to automate that. That's the low hanging fruit. And now we've repurposed strs to do good marking. So now they're helping out with good marketing. They're doing more content, that doing more demanda and that doing more social product marketing, whatever. Help me out with events, help me out with ads, you know, the paid ads on you know, all the different channels that you can do to get your message out there. Whatever. The second part of that experiment is to gradually reduce their prospecting outreach. So gradually reduce their telemarketing, their email spam and the linkedin spam by twenty five percent increments. If you're supposed to make, you know, a hundred calls a day, which is kind of typical, you, you know, have at make seventy five calls to day, and then meanwhile gradually repurpose them to other marketing activities and then give them quarter relief again. They'll be thrilled and then you're helping to do more good marketing and reducing the harm of the bad marketing. And then do this for a few sale cycles and then continue to do that until you no longer basically until you fully sunset prospecting in favor of good, proper, modern marketing, and you'll see your the revenue will go up, your conversion rates will improve, your sale cycles will improve, you know all those metrics. Your cosprequisition will improve, and then and then you kind of have proven you know that that's the that's that that ought to be done. And meanwhile you rescue your strs, you help them, really help them find more productive, filling careers, which again they're trying to do as soon as possible. You're just accelerating that. And now you've liberated yourself to be have the freedom in the resources to do the good marketing, to get off them kill Hampshield, to only produce website demo request that you automatically qualify, to be able to do with the content plays that you want to do in the podcast and the thought lead shift and Linkedin organic and the paidads and all the different channels and the events and all the sort of stuff. And you can do more or creative marketing. So a lot of markers can't be created. You can to the arts and craft stuff. Would do the humor stuff. You can't do all the stuff that really sets you apart because you don't have time for any of that because you just supposed to kind of be on this mcuel Hams wheel. So, like, how the...

...hell can you be creative and stand out when you're just having to produce like enough contact information for that shows to annoy. I think at that's the sort of ideal that you should be striving for and that's sort of why it's worth fighting for and why it's worth challenging the particular revenue model and presenting a different model and trying to test that out and experiment at Your own company with it. Now, if your see, I was not about it, if you get it, if they're just not down for it, then that should tell you something like you can continue to struggle at a company and a face an uphill battle and constantly fight to do good marketing, or find folks who are game and who are willing, find companies who who are down for you to have the freedom to do good marketing, and those will be the companies that win. Those are going to be the companies that have a massive competitive advantages are able to attract better marketing, sales talent and attract buyers. If you try to do the stuff, and I'll ultimate in the end of the day, you you hit a brick wall, then yeah, then that's to be a signal that maybe that company is not for you. I know that was a lot. I saw kind of pause there. I kind of went on a ran, as I often do, so I'll throw it back to you mark. The other question that I want to ask you as a linement beweint between marketing and sales. In many cases they operate in stilos. They don't talk to each other, they don't collaborate, they don't share ideas, they don't they don't share information. A lot of information actually sits in the CRM, which sales may access and marketing may feed information into, or or maybe there may be auto feed of information. How do you get marketing and sales to operate as collaborative, cohesive units? How do you make sure that they move forward and locksteps so that it's a virtuous circle between marketing sales? They're sharing of information. There's a sense that their their teammates as opposed to opposing forces, and that's the reality for many organizations. How does that happen? How to marketing sales aligned so that one plus one equals three? Yeah, so basically, once you you just go bowling together and it's solves everything. That's it now. Yeah. So they answer to that really is again in the model and the particular reveny model, if misaligns marketing with sales, because again, it for it, it Kepis, I would say it, quote unquote, key performance indicative for marketing is is producing junk contact information with this yards to go and annoy, and then sales is revenue and everything else. And so there's that natural asalignment in the BIOS such a remnty model. Marketing sales both have the same goals and keep eyes, which is revenue and qualified pipeline, you know, sales opportunities, cost opportunities, sales cycle, conversion rates, Kak payback. So then you both joined at the same hip. You're both aligned in the same metrics and the same goals. That's that's that's the key right there. And then it's marketing. Having the freedom in the resources to do good marketing and drive website demo requests to sales, because sales is not want to do bad manual marketing. They do not want to do prospect and they don't want to go out and chase buyers. They want to help buyers who want their help to to evaluate, purchase, implement, be successful, buy more and renew. So keep in mind, folks, that like prospecting, is something that sales used to do way back in the day...

...when marketing was unable to connect with buyers and so they had the sales peo will basically be like field marketers and go knock on doors, and then eventually that door knocking became telemarketing. That would tell marking was door knocking too, and then that's kind of where sales would do this kind of bad manual marketing stuff. Today that is no longer the case, and so you can liberate sales also from having to do this prospecting, bad manal marketing drudgery, which is what, by the way, I know I've been knocking pretict the revenue model, but just to get particular model credit where credit is due. They liberated sales from having to do that in addition to the sales job, and so they created the strs, which is essentially the marketing function, you know, to do that full time, even though aspiring sellers. Anyone who wants again to sales kind of got stuck into that. So it's anyone who wants to do sales, so they has to kind of go through this year of Hell and misery, which is still kind of screws over sales and one of the reasons why sales is still denigrade. In sales is very undesirable, I think today. And B Tob, sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought there because I kind of went on a tangent. Maybe you can reorient me just in terms of making sure that marketing and sales are Oh yeah, yeah, thank you. So, you know, I think that you give marking the freedom to get those demo requests and you give these layups, these good leads to sales of people who are actively in buy mode more likely to buy and buy fast. That's all that sales wants, and then that's kind of where you get the trust, you know, from your from your sales team, to be like yeah, marketing is pretty using good stuff and marketing is great. Marketing is crushing it fundamentally. That the then everything else that kind of happens with marketing sales is kind of like icing on the cake, where it's like, okay, you meet with your sales seeing regular and you get feedback on the leads and you're hopefully doing some attribution al ready to kind of know like what marketing is should be doing more of. So it's like you're asking Barers, for example in your website, how they heard about you, and you're also you maybe listening to sales calls or stuff like that, or you're doing qualitative interviews with your buyers, with your customers. You know, your best customers are Christmas that just bought or people that are speaking sales of people you know, maybe people that never heard of you, to kind of see like hey, what's working, what's not, how we touch up our messaging or positioning whatever, and then, you know, you kind of getting feedback from sales as to like, you know, what are the buyers questions? where the reservations, where their hesitations, like what's kind of sales is? You know, often talking to buyers, and so then you that can inform your marketing efforts. That's the icing on the cake, that's the gravy that you can't fundamentally, again, it's the KPIS, it's the metrics, it's the producing good leads for sales, then it's like yeah, getting feedback from sales and kind of regularly being in chats with them and things like that, and that's how you'll get marketing in sales alignment, which is so lacking today because that foundation isn't in place because the particular of them all. Well, thanks for all your great insight. This was a really enjoyable and educational conversation. One final question. Where can people learn about more about you, what you do and and, as important, your book? Can find me on Linkedin, Nelson Gilliat and, you know, putting out content on this stuff, kind of trying to break it down into some more digestible pieces, and they're still rants. They're just friends on you know, Linkedin and written form, and then you can and find the book on Amazon. Again, it's the death of the str and the birth of biers and Rick Revenue. So you can see long form and more context and stuff like that. You can reach out to me if you just kind of want to chat about it, if you're sort of chewing on this and you kind of want... understand like more about the model and or how to do it at your own company and stuff like that. I've also kind of soft launched consultancy to help people who kind of want help with menting that model. So I found by US and trick revenue. You know, if you actually need like proper help kind of doing it, I can help with that. But yeah, Linkedin and that's where we can definitely connect and would be happy to chat with anyone. Thanks for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review. Five Stars of course, subscribe by Apple Podcast, spotify or your favorite podcast APP and share via social media. To learn more, how I help me to be SASS companies as a fractional cmostrategic advisor coach. Send an email to mark at marketing sparkcom. Connect with me on linked in. I'll talk to you.

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