The Risks and Rewards of Being an Early Adopter

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Being an early adopter is not easy.

There is a risk to embrace a platform or product that isn't popular or perhaps not ready for prime time.

In 2017, Michael David Chapman walked away from his job. 

With no backup plan, he started to post on LinkedIn - sometimes three or four times a day - about his personal and professional challenges.

This is way before LinkedIn emerged as a vibrant content platform.

As an early adopter, Michael capitalized on a huge opportunity by doing what other people weren't doing.

His posts generated huge audiences and Michael has attracted 276,000 followers.

In this episode of Marketing Spark, we talk about Michael's LinkedIn journey and how he sees the platform evolving. 

We also do a rapid-fire session on all things LinkedIn.

Hi, it's Mark Evans, and you're listening to marketing's park. Over the past eighteen months, linkedin has transformed from being a platform for job seekers and recruiters into a thriving community teaming with content and insight for people around the world. Personally, it's been a game changer for my marketing business. Michael David Chapman, was way ahead of the pack when it came to recognize in the power of Linkedin. In two thousand and seventeen, Michael started using linkedin to talk about his personal and professional challenges. One thing led to another, a massive understatement, and Michael has established himself as one of the leading voices on linked in. With more than two hundred and Fiftyzero followers. Michael is the founder of lead and social, a digital agency that helps entrepreneurs and business owners use linkedin to extend their reach and grow their businesses. Welcome to marketing spark, Michael Hey man. Thanks for having me. It with a great what a great intro. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Let's start with a loaded question. What's your take on how people have embraced linkedin over the past eighteen months? Last year, in March or April like kind of climbed on the platform thinking it was the same old, same old, linkedin and was pleased and excited to discover it had changed. So I'm curious about your take on how the platform has evolved. Well, we've all been locked at home over the last eighteen months. You, I've seen to you, polar opposites. I'll start with the first, starting with a with a pandemic on this side of the pandemic. It's an interesting stat. I got to find the article, but there's a gentleman that wrote an article around if you he was talking about coaches and if, if you, if you would have done like just talking about how coaches, you know, the coaching space is really saturated. There seems to be one behind every tree, etc. Etc. Etc. Little Tungue in cheek there, but he had done like a keyword search prior to the pandemic and you would get like, you know, the word coach, you might got two and a half million hits, meaning that word is somewhere in a profile. Now it's on in it's approaching x that. So I think people that found themselves displaced because of things out of their control or even in some cases they had planned a digital transition or something, began to start doing something in the digital space. Maybe they found themselves flat footed in that space specifically, it just took off in terms of the the the amount of people, for sure. Then there's the polar opposite where, like you talk with people like the real estate space, the moorage space and other spaces, they just like it's still just like like it was for me, proud of two thousand and seventeen, a great place to find talent, a good fun to find it place, a good place to find a job perhaps and read a Forbes article. It's just it's just a nation. Don't care about it. I find that interesting because people like you and I, it feels like we're in the either hurricane. We're creating content, we're leaving comments, were engaging, we're doing what we think is just the right thing to do. It just seems natural Le Everage linked in this respect. I find it surprising that ninety nine percent of the people on Linkedin don't create content, don't leave comments. Some of them are lurkers that recomment. For the most part, there's a lot of people who are just not leveraging the platform and that does that surprise you? Not at all. I mean, I would say from people that are in positions where they do their own thing, they're not working for a specific company or if they're an entrepreneur, they own their own business. That would be a surprising thing because again, with a little under what you got eight hundred million people. There's got to be a segment of your you know, your market on the platform, but for people that are working, you know, your everyday wtwo position with a corporation, I can completely get it. In fact, I always sort of have an opposing view. No shock there around people that drive personal branding for job seekers in very you know, buy my course personal brandings, the way of the pathways. I get it. I mean on some level, you know,...

...used to be your personal brand was your resume and then what somebody would say about you when they picked up a phone and we're looking do it a reference check. So I understand the power social media for a job seeker, but I think you have to handle that a little bit more careful. So I'm not surprised to see more, you know, people that hold, you know, your typical ninety five job, not doing content, but business owners, people, entrepreneurs. Yeah, that's surprising because it's just it's too easy to get attention on the platform. It's too easy. Before we ramble down the linkedin rabbit hole, I do want to circle back with you on personal brand because I see a lot of that these days and there's so much attention and, as you say, there are coaches and mentors and and personal branding seems to be so important these days. And my take is with personal branding, do the right things, you know, be good person and then in time your reputation will will start to build in a positive way. But do you think the focus is there's an overexaggeration on personal branding these days? Yeah, I don't I wouldn't say over exaggeration. I think it's more of a maybe a lack of understanding. I mean again, I'm it's a it's a fair question, but perhaps a bit broad, and so I'll give it a broad answer. You know, I would say. I'll give you an answer like if I was going to hire somebody to help me personal branding as a job seeker, they would be somebody that has got some either experience, evaluating experience or influence in the hiring game. They've hired somebody perhaps they've let someone go, fired someone they've had, they've worked in talent acquisition or talent development and or how to influence in that space, because those aren't silver bullets, because those are those are going to be people that are going to bring what I think a more holistic view, to a more practical view, to saying hey, Ye know, anybody can go out there with a sell anybody with time and a cell phone can get out there and get attention. But is it is it the right thing? For example, when I was when I quit my job, I quit my job without a job and at the end of the day, some of the stuff about what she started with this in Intro, I mean I think it ran potential employers off. I wasn't talking anything bad or anything disparaging about a previous employer or holding any one position or another, but I found linkedin at a time when it was really easy to to not just gain followership with drive viewership. And so you know, you got a guy that's looking for a job in sales leadership in New England that's got a hundred thousand views on a post talking about leadership stuff. It's good stuff, but maybe that's you know, maybe we don't want someone with such a perceived personal person. I mean like it's just you've got to handle it. So I don't think it's over exaggerated. I just think that, like the marketing that's see around it, I don't see, not all. I don't see at all, but I don't see enough of the balance as Uster job seekers, for entrepreneurs and business owners. No excuse, I don't think it is. When I see people say look, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur on Linkedin and you're not working on your personal brand, of companies brand, you're missing the boat. You know, in general I get that, but for job seekers it's oftentimes it's not delivered with the right level of balance. In my opinion, over the last year, what has surprised you most about Linkedin and what has disappointed you? I think some of this surprises, I mean it's, you know, with what happened, like all social media platforms, I think thank it the the the least amount of this sort of accusation, but claim that, you know, they've taken positions in subtle ways in terms of how they've handled some people's content, and I'm not talking about you know. You know in we saw some things last spring that we're just, you know, very, very not only just disheartening and disappointing, but just really scary in terms of how, you know, things can get out of hand really quick in a law enforcement situation. As saw, the...

...platform, like a lot of companies, you know, take positions that they didn't hold before in ways that that that they they're not in that same position right. So I've been disappointed in seeing that. I'm kind of being a bit Cagi what I'm what I'm saying there, but I think the right prince is clear. I'm not. I've not appreciated some of the approach that they took to supporting some voices in that space and not other voices, whether you're having a balance narrative and we can really talk about workable solutions. I Have I've not appreciated that. What what I've what I've really liked, is they've continued to ask questions on how they can make it more of a creator platform, because, you know, there's people that create a whole lot more than me. But back then, you know, for five years ago, four years ago, you know, I was creating three, you know, two, three times a day, and so people like myself and people that have done much more than me. May a cremated a creator Plat, made a creator plats, a non creator platform or creator platform. So I like what they're trying to do. What's been disappointing. So that's that's good. What's been disappointing with that is it doesn't look like they're always really canvassing and seeking out input from the membership of people that, you know, have been around and done it. And doesn't have to be me, but you know, like, when's the last time you got an update from linkedin that said this is what we just did, you know, this is what we're doing and Oh, by the way, you know it came from you know, not these people, but this is what we did to really listen to our members and really give them what they want. That's that's been probably my biggest frustration. But again, it's it's like that's such a small thing. I mean it's a great place to be. They make it, like I said, very, very easy for you to not just find people do business with or to hire or to be hired by May what other platform has. Mean this is a great thing to give a heap what is what is what other platform has a sales navigator right where, while, yeah, facebook's got to how many what? Three billion? How many people on facebook? Three billion? They don't. Yeah, they don't have anything like sales navigator. You can't. You can't find people and niche down to a very narrow target of potential prospects like you can on Linkedin. They do a terrific job with that, with all its imperfections. What I find interesting over the last year is that all of us have been working from home. We've been masters, are masters or mistresses of our own domain. Pretty much. As long as you do the work, no one's watching you. There's very other zoom meetings, but you can be pretty flexible on your time and I think it's allowed a lot of people to multitask. Have linked on on one screen, do their work on the other, be connecting, leaving comments. But what happens when people start going back to the office in September, because I know in the states you guys are already working in the office. In Canada will get there in a couple months. But how do people's use of linkedin change when you're not at home anymore and that you're working with people and there there may be less time to leverage the platform. Just do you think we'll see a discernible change in people's usage of Linkedin? I do, I do, man, I think. I think you know. Again, I mean, what did you do if you are under I think I'll answer alas. What did you do if you were a senior level leader at a marketing agency? What did you do if you were summarily displaced because of the pandemic? You know, if you are in a position financially to take some time and weather the storm, great, but a lot of people aren't and weren't, and so you know. But you have these skills, and so a lot of people went into got on Linkedin and start obviously looking for jobs. But you know, also you saw the open to work linkedin started, where you're making it in your picture very obvious to to to job seekers that you're available right. Well,...

...a lot of consultants and coaches and intangible service providers did the same thing, and so I do think you'll see a fall of I think is the intrinsic question, like, because you know companies now, I mean, we're here in it. Depending on what report you look at and what news outlet me, people are struggling to find people for various reasons. I mean we can go down that path and you know you're that same leader. Worker isn't trying to be an entrepreneur, they're not trying to be a business owner, they're trying to ride out the next fifteen years or whatever their career working for an organization where, you know, the culture is good, to pay is good, they can have a good life, etc. Etc. So the disruption with the code created where okay, now I got to get online and find something in Linkedin is then the the one of the probably one of the, if not the natural outlets for that. I think we're going to see, I mean we're I'm seeing it. I mean for sure as people gone back to work, if answer to your question. But yeah, I mean I think that that and then there's some people that it got on that they're there to stay. But there's a lot of new things and creators since the pandemic that put out great content every day. Sure, one thing at that I wanted to ask you about, because you focus on helping business leaders and Entrepreneurs Leverage Linkedin, is your thoughts on CEO's being active on Linkedin, because there's one school of thought suggesting that it's a great place to build thought leadership in a personal brand. On the other side of the coin, there's there's some people who are some CEOS that are afraid of Linkedin, they're afraid of putting themselves out there, everything has to be vetted and that it's almost not worth the risk. And I'm wondering where you said. Obviously I think I know the answer, but do you think that CEO should be active on Linkedin and should be engaging for both their own personal brands and for their own companies branding? Not as a general point, not without some man you know, because someone said that and there's opportunity. No, I would say if you're in a for sure, if you're in a which most businesses are, if you're in a business where it really matters to get a sense of what it's like to work with not just the CEO but the organization, and you have the time, you know. And again we're talking about let's just talk about a privately held company, right, because it did. I think that diamond dynamic is is a little bit different when you're publicly held and some of all that comes with that. So and of course, I've never been a CEO of just having worked with CEO's boat in both spaces, in what you're talking about and some of the work with now you know a lot of times they choose to sit in the back seat. There part of the creative process or the energy on that side of the marking side. But they but they really want they want me do one other things. All right, and so what I'd say the CEO is is not so much should you be out there, but you know, at the end of the day, whether it's you or your team or whatever, if you're not there, here's some you know some some numbers, right. I mean like there's almost eight hundred minute million people on this platform. It's still here's a fact. It's still an algorithm. While they're changing all the time. You don't need adspend to get organic reach. You need to in get somebody on your team needs to engage your potential prospects of your audience and meaningful ways on their content, and that naturally brings energy, positive energy engagement to quote unquote, your content, maybe not from the company page, because those are oftentimes ghost towns, but you know, if you have the your senior director of marketing. You know your if you're put this way, if you're twenty five million dollar company that's got seventy employees, whatever it is, and you've got a marketing person that's not doing something on Linkedin and you're in the roofing business, you're missing out, whether it's your CEO or not, whether you're the CEO or not. So does it need...

...to be the CEO? No, you could argue. Listen, what's a CEO doing sit around putting out content on linked I mean, it's just you know, there you're not going to make everybody happy. What I would rather say it's whether it's a CEO or somebody marketing or frontline account executive, somebody needs to be out there holding the the flag of your company grant and going up the hill with it, because your competition is doing it. Their competitions cracking and figure it out. I mean, so you're hearing that all the time, for sure. I would say one of the keys to my success and enjoyment of linked over the last year has been conversations. So I have reached out to probably had a hundred and fifty conversations, and I don't mean that to boast, I just say that because I've taken the initiative and I enjoy the conversations and people have been open to having conversations with me. I would think that there's a leap between connections and conversations. It's easy to make connections and everyone talks about the fact that they have thousands of followers and five hundred plus connections. But what's your advice on taking the next step, to moving taking a relationship to the next level and reach out to somebody and saying hey, I would love to connect with you and not coming across as to salesy or opportunistic? Yeah, I mean, we create message for our clients. So I don't think anybody's entirely you know, and I was just for your audience and this is going to be a probably a little dogmatic, I don't think anybody's totally crack that. I mean, at the end of the day, I guess I'll definitely tell you some tactics, but I mean, the end of the day, always liken it to you know, what would it look like if I walked up to you at a very loud football game in the concession stand? Or, let's just say a mutual friend, a mutual friend. All right, your brother, we both know your brother or sister, spells whatever, invited me to a football game where you knew I was a potential client and you for your marketing business, your you're the marketing business. You and you know, by hearsay or by word of mouth, where or whatever, that I could be a potential client. So you and I are there. Where you at? Where you located, by the way, mark in Toronto, Canada. Okay, so it's not going to be foot would be a hockey game, hockey M football game. If you're down here in new English, say we're out of new land, New England football game, because ill this I I'll do what Americans do, where we make it sound like it's all about us right in the third quarter. By that time, you and I've built rapport you haven't tried to. You Know My name, you know I've got a you know I've got kids that are but, like you haven't really started to talk to me about the business. Now, imagine a scenario. Im My, hey man, let's go get a refill. I'm like Hey, now, what do you do again? That would be your three to six seconds of time to get my attention. That's how you need to treat outreach right. I mean that takes a lot of thought and I know that's like a very, probably not so likely example it would happen in real life, but that's a that's the best metaphor I've come up with. This helped us increase our conversience with our clients, because what's happening is, first of all, everybody sending everybody messages on this side of the pandemic more less so now, presumably, but and they're not all, but people are trying to get appointments to talk about their sirs and talk about them how they can solve that person's problems and close deals. I get it. I totally get that. I think one of the best ways is to just remember how do you want to be talked to? And that's not going to fit everyone. You know, we've got campaigns where we don't send am you know the commential, send a personalized message. I mean that's been around since the beginning of that that's been around since Reehoffman started the platform. I mean, my God, people are still preaching that without a lot of data. There is the doubt out there, but it's just changed people because everyone said, okay, I'll send a personalized message and then you know, hi, I was looking at your profile and they said the terrible one right like it's like, so what the the the more definancer, I'd say, is building your approach and outreach around your client is the key. That takes time. It's not a one size fits all. If you say to me,...

Hey, listen, your target is ceasweet executives in big farm that's we talked to them like that. Midlevel leaders in e commerce, we talked to them like that, and frontline leaders in manufacturing or transportation, we talked to them like that. When you can boiler plate some of that, but at the end of the day the best way is to just be direct and honest as you can. People don't have a lot of time. In my opinion, people don't want to sit around a chat. I'll speak for myself. If you want to chat with me, I'm going to be like, let's get on a call. I don't want to sit there and text all day. So but again, that's a subjective. Some people that's all they do. So it's about knowing your client. I will say one thing and just around that success. You got to try things and measure it. The one of the reasons why people will preach at nauseum around you know, direct outreach doesn't work on Linkedin's because a lot of times they're not measuring anything. You know, if you're not measuring each conversion or response rate of conversions and response race on every single touch, you're really not saying that with anything empirical. So I think at the end a treat people like you want to be treated, sometimes coming right out and saying hey, mark, thanks for connecting. You know a little bit about me. I am a blank, blank, blank, blank, blank blank, and in that blank, blank blank, that that touches on your pain, or presume pain. Hey, would you like to have a call? That still works, depending on what you're selling. I love if you're asking me down on the tail side, but that's what I turned it into. So sorry. Yeah, yeah, well, I love the football analogy, football game analogy, because I think that in some cases directly messaging someone after a connection request makes sense, but in a lot of case it's about relationships and building rapport and coming across as sincerely being interested and you make a contribution and your offering insights. There's there's you've got street cred and you've got some points and you can catch those points in to request a conversation and that that that's a natural way of building relationships. No, again, if I walked up to you and your spouse and a football game and I said Hey, I just want you to know I really think and paid you a compliment, how would I say that? It's the same transferable point. That's that's so aggressive. mean. WHO's doing that? Right? Nobody right. Right. Treat it like you treated people, with care and respect. Should I send a message? Not a message, that's all. That should be driven by it, by not just your approach, but what what converts from it from a numbers perspective. One final question before we get into the ray fire around, which is always a lot of fun. If you're not one of the eight hundred million people that has jumped on the linked and Linkedin bandwagon and you suddenly dawned on you that maybe Linkedin is the place where I need to be, what's your advice on getting started, because it can be intimidating when people are saying you got to create content, you got to leave comments, you got to be connecting with people and all you want to do is just sort of dip your toe in the water. Yeah, I mean, this is I've had. I've had, man, I've had some really interesting debates, borderline arguments, with people on content posts on this topic. Right, what should happen first? So I'll give you. I'll give you some I'll give you the opposite of what I think a lot of people say. Look, just start putting out content. There's nothing wrong with that. But turns into it's sort of a sort of not always, not always will be fair to people out there. That because we, and we inadvertently are our business has to brand you. I mean basically, when we build a messaging campaign, the last thing we look at it your profile, because we want to we want to make sure the profile supports the outreach. We don't we do the process of most people build a profile and then they build the outreach. We build the outreachs in the profile. So I understand personal branding enough to sound smart at a networking of that. I say it's okay. People will say they start putting out content and people will just show up. Well, there's some merit to that. There's a lot of merit to that, specially if it's Taylor to the right target and and it's oftent. You know, authent will use the or genuine, authentic and your very...

...niche and all of these things you talk about. At the same time, there's something about and these are the two analogies, right. You know, content marketing is like you driving by, you having a product, and you driving by my house and throwing, you know, whatever it would be. Let's say you're you know you're you throw a newspaper, you throw an advertisement in my frontyard. You hanging on my door. There's a reasonable chance I'm let's say it's folded up in the center of something. There's a reasonable chance that I'm talking at read that number one. There's a reasonable chance that I may not even see it for a week. When I open it, I may not see what you want me to see, etc. Etc. That's content marketing, all right. Direct outreach is high mark. There's probably a fifty fi what. I don't know the odds because I'm not a man. Yes, but I'm just going to fifty to make more a fifty chance that's either going to go bad or go dormant or go good. So direct outreach, when people one of the constructive points that have around just people that are heavy, heavy content, content, content, content marketing. It's it's not as direct and it's not as measurable as direct outreach, because direct outreach is a literal knock on someone's digital door, so to answer. So I'm just that's a huge preface of sort of just put the lands give it. You need to have both of those clubs in your back to be success. In my mind it hard not to be success. You meet successful aut direct outreach, but to me it's too good of an opportunity. If you're not outspamming people and you if you can make friends at a at a bar, you can make friends, you can do direct outreach. If you're good at making friends in the real world you're going to be good at mate. Doing direct outreach is the same transfer will, attitude and spirit, etc. ETCEDRIC, etc. It's just it's a different way of doing it on the front end until you can shoot a video and audio. So what I'd say that people is, if I was going to do one thing first is to really be thinking about the end game and working backwards. Who are the people? Let's say it's somebody's going to sell something. Right, you didn't really you don't really frame the WHO, but let's just say it's a it's a solo preneur who's just left a company. They got they got one year of, you know, financial runway to figure it out. They don't need to work and they're building something. They're going to do an online course, they're a coach. It doesn't really matter whatever they do. To me they needed to think about the WHO because once you know who the WHO is, even if you're not a hundred percent sure, you can start knocking on those doors and you can start building those connections, which, in advert in and of early, most assuredly, even at thirty five percent, is building the audience. So now you're building your youtube channel audience. Now you building who is going to WHO's going to read that content? Don't get me wrong, you will if you just start putting out content, start getting new levels of virality. You know, I start commenting on mark and Mark Kirk's on mine and I've got a thousand followers, he's got five hundred. Will now my thousand follower receiving the fact he's commenting? They've got it interlocked like that. But that's less reliable than high arc notice you're in. You know, you Durham, New Hampshire, you know, looking to connect with other people there. Whatever you would say, understand that. Put it so the content thing all address, but putting out, starting to talk to people, having a plan for that in tandem with building your content strategy, because again a lot of people quit the content game because they don't get the right attention. Even if it's for vanity metrics, name for a business, they don't stick with it because they're not also building the audience on the outreach side. Don't get me wrong, when I started going viral, people came to me. At one point I was getting six hundred to seven hundred followers a day after I got past thirtyzero. I get that, but that's different. That's a different time. We probably won't see that on Linkedin again. That was two thousand and seventeen. Two Thousand and eighteen. People need to have a plan to do outreach. For sure. Let's do the rapid right around. I'll ask you a question. You can answer it for as long or short as you like. You're ready for this ready. Does linkedin launch a zoom like service? Yes,...

...does it launch a clubhouse like service? HMM, yes, why you? Why you hesitant? They just need to see. The zoom thing would make total sense, because where did you go if you didn't have zoom? Yet skype, Google meets and I think those are two probably get trollers double, you know, not double, but substandard zoom. I think they missed an opportunity with definitely zoom, clubhouse only, yet definitely club out. The only like go talk to people that did club house early on and bring them in and talk to him and say, Hey, how do we do it and do it better? Go ahead. will groups be as ever, be as good as facebook groups? Never. No, no, not, never. Not, unless they decide to be really good at some things instead of trying to be, you know, average at a lot of things, which I think is a lot of the problem right now. Will linkedin offer analytics for personal accounts or will it allow shield DOT AI to dominate the market? I think the question is, will they will they mimic what shield is doing? I'm still surprised that they are not. You know and I've used shield. I have clients you shield. Are they are they have approven? I'm still surprised there are another provender they haven't figured out to help take that to another little they got the views, likes, comments and shares, but I just don't think. I think that's the long winded answer. That's an example and again, I don't know, I don't work there, but shields been around for how long now? That's an example of obviously people want it. People like it. They want to understand things and you know, if you're a you're analytic geek like me, you're getting into you did five hundred character post on Monday to a glide to get another five hundred care posts on Monday, but a different topic and you're tracking that. You want to understand the conversion. That's an example of they're not listen. No, I don't think. I don't think they'll do that. I just find it incredible that people talk about Shield People Love Shield then you know the power users love shielding and linkedin seems to be ignoring that and I don't know what just again, I don't think they would ignore I think I gain there. You know, I think. I think the data, the viewpoint, this is an anecdote. They're more interested in other things like ad spent with the going on with their advisis, and I mean like you know guy, you would be carried about. You know how many lights, comments and shares? If you look, you got enough. figure out what that dude. That's what it feels like right. Three hundred characters in post, good or bad. Three hundred, three thousand, sorry, three thou three hundred to be bound the post. Today on my phone I think I found a hack. I don't have the update or something, but it didn't let me go as one hundred on my phone. I think it's good because I've had I've had many a post I've had to pair down. So I think it's a good thing it just again. It's really going to that's why they say short form post the best. I don't entirely agree. I used to say it all the time. Used to preach that from the mountain top. I think when you're compelling writer and you can keep somebody in one thousand three hundred characters, it's something to keep them at at the three thousand levels. So now I'm happy that they did it. Do you ever publish articles as opposed to post? I haven't done one in over two years. It's said I did one on New York the e two thousand and nineteen going in two thousand and twenty creator mode men or interesting, and if so, why? Creator mode like stories. I'm will put them together. Is the Ryan Leaf. Remember Ryan Leaf? He's the Ryan Leaf of Linkedin. If you if your audience doesn't, a Rian Leaf was, I think, consider the number one draft bus. It's nice. Yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's not. I mean in terriensically know what they were trying to do, but I, you know, and again people have sworn like I've getten more views, I'm getting this, I'm getting that. But then when I hear them say that they're not comparing, you know, they're comparing a highlighter to a pin. In terms of the Post Style and time and day and all that, I haven't seen a compelling thing for I like that they're trying to do things better for creative but again just looks like they not sure who they who, they're subs who their sample set was to look at and they talked to linkedin stories a bust, a complete bust?...

I don't think it's a bust. It's just like how do you? How you know? Tell me how to. I like. What I really liked about it, like I like with Poles, is where it seemed like once you would post a story, you know they're pushing it outside your network. So where's like a regular text posts could go? You know, I think used to be they would, they would, you know, the alborum would send it to the first ten, maybe twenty five percent of your first degree network stories were going to total. Opposite was like eighty percent to the second and third. Agree. I love that. But the problem is you can't get analytics, you can't download the information. Like if I put out a story about, you know, the next best water bottle, you know in a commoditized environment, and people are all going crazy about it, I got screenshots as you engaged it and viewed it and whatever. Same thing with Poles. It's just like that goes back to your shield analytics thing. But they have a huge opportunity. My question back to anybody. Would you pay twenty five dollars more a month for better analyx? I would probably pay more than them publishing a post every day. There are evangelists who say that it's absolutely necessary and others suggest that as long as you're consistent, maybe one or two a week that's good enough. With your take, I never like that discussion. Without what what are you trying to accomplish. I mean, I know I beat that horse. I could on the clubhouse. I used to post at the height I was doing three to four times a day. It had a direct relationship and followership. You know when I hit when I got to probably a hundred and thirty thirty fivezero followers, more poster of more followers. There's no doubt about it, because intrinsically I'm communicating relevancy in the algorithm, no matter who's engaging. So again, if you're trying to get more followers, I'm a fan of it because you're just going to be in the feed. And you know, I've seen the ones that I've got a couple million. They get like you know, and I love these New People that come on and you've heard of. Oh, I get more. I get more engagement than guys got any of people with millions of followers like those people million followers do not care about that statement. They're not trying to get a lot. They've been down the path of Hey, I remember when I have my first beer to like what from? I remember when I had a found likes to like. They're over that. It's a totally different game for some of those people in it. I know that because I know some of them personally. So you have to ask what are you trying to accomplish and work backwards. But the most part, the more you're in the feed, the more you're going to get attention. You may not get the same amount of tention on this first versus that post because there's a preference at that point, but in terms of name recognition branding, more can be good. The unfortunate side of that is more that's like terrible is not a good thing. So this is what people are probably that are listening to waiting for me to say. If you're putting out like clickbait stuff, stuff that you know, you know a fifth grader with a cell phone and time could do, that's not a good thing. So if if you're in game, you got to understand your end game and if you have relevant you know, and I like saying quality, because what's a quality post? I don't even like what's a quality post. What's it? What's good content? Quality and good content's going to be the content your he would you know your audience wants to hear and see in and among other attributes, if you're doing that and you're serving them. I don't have a problem with more than once a day. Do people under race to interestimate the value of comments? This isn't quite a rapid fire they do. I'm it out. Yeah, I mean I took some time off. So mean, anybody's followed me of like, what's he talking about? Like I built my that that I built more of that follower base on my comments than I did my content, even though it was post that much. When you show up to you know, a popular person's post, that gets a lot of engagement and you provide a lot of value, like and not not just to do it, but you're bringing a lot of value to the conversation. You can see that, you can see the result. People have said, and I agree. It's a giver's Gain Algorithm. There's some type of relevancy improvement algorithmic score, magic thing behind the scenes. I've never seen it. That goes on when when you're getting to other people. Whether you believe that's an algorithm the thing or not, I just think it's a good thing. People want, you know, people want at tension on their content.

They want to ride attention, but they wanted to know one's no one's putting out content to get zero attention. Right. That's called journaling. So I think people underestimated because they don't see the immediate Rlie. But but people that have been doing it, and I know that people that do it, they get it. They've seen the increase, not just in the followership, the increase engagement on their content and if they're doing it for their business, you know, some type of indirect maybe about five, six seven degrees of separation, Roi on their business. Final question, and this may not apply to you because you've been on the platform for four plus years and you've a huge following, but should people accept every connection request? No, why not? This is the only time I was going to give you a one word answer. I really thouldn't gonna give you a word order. Well, I did that, I mean I did that. You know, I want to two thousand and seventeen. I was at like a thousand connections. I didn't know anything about anything and I started getting all these people coming. I accepted everyone until I got to like two thousand and twenty two, maybe even like twenty Fivezero, and that was a mistake because, well, let me rephrase it. That wasn't a mistake. That would have been a mistake. How to have a plan. I was just trying to find a job. I wasn't trying to be an entrepreneur, I wasn't trying to be a thought leader. was trying to do me. It's your looking for a job, which again goes back to the personal branding. I think I did have in that period probably ten or eleven opportunities that didn't work out for whatever reason. But again I was in the feed all the time and I'm sure I was communicating. Does this guy ever work? Like, my Gosh, like, who knows? Or people were thinking that. So I accepted everyone. The the typical response to that is no, don't step every you should spend time vetting everyone and should be people that you would do business with, them would hire you, and this and that. There's which always say. I don't entirely disagree with that, but like, that's where you are today. Right. I have clients that I still have and then I had but then worked with and didn't work with again for whatever reason, that I connected with in two thousand and seventeen that were in my network, just sitting there as consumer, saying, man, I've been I've been seeing your content for years. I had no idea you did this and that. Can we have a call? But who can predict that, right? I mean, yeah, how do how do I look at your profile and say, oh, that's going to happen when Mark in two thousand and twenty five? So it's a painful thing because it takes a lot of time to vet a profile right, especially if you're a skeptic like me. It's like, okay, Oh, wow, another coach, and I'm beating coaches up because I am one. Right. Yeah, I don't need coaches, I am one. Right. I'm looking for the synonym to replace that word. I think if I come up with a world I'll be rich. There's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't and there's some reasons why you should. If it's just about the numbers, then yeah, go right at it, but the end of the day it's a whole lot easier to accept one than it is to disconnect for someone. And just the basic functions on Linkedin, except versus you know, disconnecting. This is easier versus hard. I'll see really give a good consis answer that. But you know, we do it. Do what's right for your business now and what you can you know or or your port. You know what you're doing as a as a professional. A lot of people still close to the vest. I used to say could that with everybody, Bla Blah, but as I've looked at it, I know some of that's not entirely right. Well, you have been a fantastic rapid fire player, so thank you for that. And one final question. Let's talk a little bit about your story. You spend a lot of years and BB sales before jumping into linkedin in two thousand and seventeen. Curious about what you were thinking why Linkedin. What were your thoughts in terms of using the platform? Provides some insight into how your business has evolved and grown over the past four years? Yeah, I'll tell you one thing. I'll start with that first person work back. But one of the things we haven't done is embrace the traditional approaches to scaling. I mean I I had the had the blessing or the opportunity to work close...

...to individual owners, specifically last one. I work with and Saul, what it looks like firsthand to not be the business owner but to see business owners are driven by by scale, scale, scale, again, nothing wrong with that. However, from me. I saw some of the downside and dark side of that that, you know, we could we could go into if you want, and so that that's had a profound effect on me on continuing to stay a was the word close and maybe can I use the word faithful to some of my why that I found in two thousand and seventeen, which was listen. One of them was I'm not going to take the work if, if I can't work close to my kids, both geographically and emotionally, I don't do the work. What's the geographical points speak for itself. I want to work from home until my oldest is old enough and unless I could work from home, you know it. With a company fine too. But the emotional part is this just taken on good business. It's one thing when you're a business owner. You have no business. You sort of got to take this. I get that, but there's there's something that's happened. I think the decision to, you know, say no to relationships that just obviously not a good fit in no matter what the pay is from a from a contract perspective, has you know, that decision has been it's been honored. It's allowed me to create the life for my kids that I couldn't do before, not just financially, but but to be here, be here and then to be able to cut work on and off. Why did I get why did it? Why did I do that? I didn't plan on doing that. I quit a job in two thousand and seventeen. That was toxic. It was a huge step of faith because I did the total opposite of some other people my life. They were like, you're crazy, you, I mean, you're single father, you for kids, you just come out of a marriage, you cannot quit a job about a job, and that's exactly what I did. It was and it took me about a year to get there. So and for me, the reason I did is I just wanted there's something in me that I can't quid of explain to I didn't want to look for a job on his time. I'd always done it. I just it wasn't like that's, you know, not not my casting shade on that, but for me it just was this place you get to where you like no, I'm going to do it different. You know, something else is calling me, and that's exactly what it was. I got on the platform. I mean like the first week I got on the platform to look for a job. I just saw the feed. It was like seeing all these you know, there were some some pretty what are now big names, putting out this like they were all poem from Peter Drucker and, you know, leadership good to great, Jim Collins and like Oh man, like I've got and I had like I had written all my phone. I have a newer phone now, but in the cloud I had two thousand, I don't know how many S, about two thousand plus journals that I had written about the loss of jobs, the loss of a child, two marriages, moving four times, going up followerless. I had all these journals and so I just I didn't start sharing the journals while I was looking for a job, but I started to share some of the learnings while I was looking for a job and I just I just took off. I mean I remember December, two thousand and seventeen. I remember a five, six, hundred, seven, hundred character post. A bad day was anything less on a hundred thousand years. They were out. They were handing view yeah, they were handing views out, and this was right about the time, I think, video came out. You could do video this way before live, but you could do a native video. I want to say October of that year. I wasn't doing any video yet, but I was just doing heavy text books under three hundred characters, sometimes one liners, and I just took off and I was like Hey, may you know, started getting some coaching business, started working with guys on on on men's issues, and then I started so hey, can show me how to write content? Can you do this? And how does linkedin work? And I was like, Oh, I'm not about to be a linkedin coach expert. Guys, whatever that's, I don't have that. I've done my best to like not have the there again, there's nothing wrong with that, but you know, I've seen the ugly side of that where people really push that and oftentimes, not always often done, sometimes don't...

...know what they're talking about. So it just evolved. At some point I met my now business partner who was doing direct outreach with no automation for clients and we just put those two services together in two thousand and nineteen. So it just evolved. I mean it's been it could have been anything. It could have been consulting, it could have been anything that will allow me to stay close to my kids. Being here marquides geographically and emotionally. Could have been anything could have been. It could have been working in a brick and work. It just it just didn't work out that way. Just as a note to people who are listening to this conversation and you may be curious about how Michael and I connected, it was through a comment. Somebody posted something that both of us recognized as so self promotional. It was outrageous. So I commented on it. Michael commented on it. He sent me in an audio message, I sent him an audio message. One thing led to another and here we are talking to each other and maybe a person relationship, and I think that's the power of Linkedin. That's the power of comments and being engaged on the platform. You know, it's amazing to talk to people from around the world who are so good at what they do and have such great insight, and I want to thank you for coming on the podcast and really offering some great insight and some guidance on how to how to use linkedin and how to get the most out of the platform. One final question. Where can people learn more about you and lead in social yeah, we're lead in Socialcom or just you know. I put David. The recent people say why did you use your middle name, because isn't that the guy that shot Lennon? Mark David Chapman? I always get that from the trolls or whatever. So not. I put the word David and there because typically automated bought outreach doesn't drop the middle name. Then bring it out that because nobody would call me that. So I'm like, only my mother calls me that. Use them what I'm in trouble. So Michael David Chapminal then or lead in socialcoms best plays. Thanks for listening to another episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe by Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP, and share via social media. If you'd like to learn more about how I help BBS as companies, it's a fractional CMO strategically buysor and coach. Connect with me on linkedin or send an email to mark at marketing sparkcom. I'll talk to you next time. I.

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