The Risks and Rewards of Being an Early Adopter

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Being an early adopter is not easy.

There is a risk to embrace a platform or product that isn't popular or perhaps not ready for prime time.

In 2017, Michael David Chapman walked away from his job. 

With no backup plan, he started to post on LinkedIn - sometimes three or four times a day - about his personal and professional challenges.

This is way before LinkedIn emerged as a vibrant content platform.

As an early adopter, Michael capitalized on a huge opportunity by doing what other people weren't doing.

His posts generated huge audiences and Michael has attracted 276,000 followers.

In this episode of Marketing Spark, we talk about Michael's LinkedIn journey and how he sees the platform evolving. 

We also do a rapid-fire session on all things LinkedIn.

Hi, it's mark evans and you'relistening to market es por over the past eighteen months, link tin hastransformed from being a platform job seekers and recruiters into a thrivingcommunity teaming with content and in sight around the world. Personally,it's been a game tutor for my marking, business michael david chapman wayahead of the pack came to recognizing the power of linking in two thousandand seventeen michael started using lincon to talk about his personal andprofessional talent. One thing led to another, a massive understatement andmichael has established himself as one of the leading voices on linked endwith more than two hundred and fifty thousand followers michael, is thefounder of leaden social, a digital agency that helse entrepreneurs andbusiness owners use linked in to extend their reach and grow their businesses.Welcome to marketing spark michael, hey man, thanks for having me with agreat what a great intro appreciate it. I thank you. Thank you. Let's startwith a loaded question, what's your take on how people have embraced linkedin over the past eighteen months? Last year, in mark or april, i kind ofclimbed on the platform thinking it was the same old sam old, linked in and waspleased and excited to discover it had changed. So i'm curious about your takeon how the platform has evolved. Well, we alven locked at home over the lasteighteen months, m yeah. I've seen two polar opposites.I'll start with the first starting with the with a pandemic on this side of thepandemic is an interesting stand. I got to find the article, but there's ageman that wrote an article around if you just talk about coaches and if, ifyou, if you would have done like just talking about how coaches you know, thecoaching space is really saturated, there seems to be one behind every treeet ce ce, etc little tug and sheet there, but he had done like a keyboardsearch prior to the pandemic, and you would get like you know the word coach,you might get two and a half million hits meaning. That word is somewhere ina profile. Now it's a in it's approaching three extent, so i thinkpeople that found themselves displaced because of things out of their control,or even in some cases they had planned a digital transition or something tobegan to start doing something in the digital space. Maybe they foundthemselves flat footed in that space. Specifically, it just took off in termsof the the the amount of people for sure, then there's the polar opposite.Where, like you talk with people like the real estate space, the mortagespace and other spaces they just like it's still just like like it was for meprodeo, two thousand and seventeen a great place to find talent a good findto find it play some good place to find a job. Perhaps and read a fors article,it's just it's just a they should don't care about it. I find that interestingbecause people like you and i it feels like we're in the either hurricanewe're creating content. We're leaving comments were engaging we're doing whatwe think is just the right thing to do. It just seems natural leverage linkedin this respect. I find it surprising that ninety nine percent of the peopleon linkedin don't create content, don't leave comments. Some of them arelurkers. That red comment for the most part there's a lot of people who arejust not leveraging the platform, and that does that surprise you not at all i mean i would say, forpeople that are in positions where they do their own thing: they're, notworking for a specific company or fair, an entrepreneur they own theirown business. That would be a surprising thing because, again with alittle wonder, what are you? Eight hundred million people there's got tobe a segment of your. You know your market on the platform, but for peoplethat are working, you know your every day, w two position with a corporation.I can completely get it. In fact, i always sort of have an opposing view.No shock there around people that drive personal branding for job speakers invery you know by my course, personal brains. The way of the pathways i get imean on some level, you know used to be...

...your personal brand. Was your resumeand then what somebody would say about you when they picked up a phone andwe're looking doing a reference check, so i understand the power of socialmade for a job segre, but i think you have to handle that a little bit more careful. So i'm notsurprised to see more. You know people that hold. You know your typical ninetyfive job not doing content, but business owners. You know people,entrepreneurs yeah, that's surprising, because it's just it's too easy to getattention on the platform. It's too easy before we ramble down the linkedin rabbit hole. I do want to circle back with you on personal brand,because i see a lot of that these days and there's so much attention and, asyou say, there are coaches and mentors and and personal brandings seems to beso important these days and my take is with personal branding: do the rightthings? You know be a good person and then in time your reputation willwill start to build in a positive way. But do you think the focus is there'san over exaggeration on personal brandy in these days? Yeah, i wouldn't say over exaggeration,i think it's more of a may, be a lack of understanding. I mean again i'm it'sa it's a a fair question, but perhaps a bit broad and so i'll give it a broadanswer. You know, i would say i'll give you an answer like if i was going tohire somebody to help me personal braining as a job seeker. They would besomebody that has got some either experience,evaluated experience or influence in the hiring game, they've hired somebody,perhaps they've. Let someone go fired. Someone they've had they've, worked in talent,acquisition or talent, development and or had influence in that space, becausethose aren't silver bullets, because those are pee. There are going to bepeople that are going to bring what i think a more holistic view to a morepractical view to saying hey. You know anybody can go out there with a sellanybody with time and a cell phone can get out there and get attention, but is.Is it the right thing? For example, when i was when i quit my job, i quitmy job without a job and at the end of the day, some of the stuff about whatshe started with his m intro, i mean, i think it ran potential employers off. Iwasn't talking anything bad or anything disparagingabout a previous employer or holding any one position or another, but ifound link in at a time when it was really easy to to not just gainfollowership with drive viewership, and so you know you got a guy, that'slooking for a job in sales leadership in new england. That's got a hundredthousand. Yes on a post talking about leadership, stuff, it's good stuff, butmaybe that's you know. Maybe we don't want someone with such a perceivepersonal person. I mean like it's just you've got to handle it, so i don'tthink it's over exaggerated, but just think that, like the marketing that seaaround it, i don't see not a call, but i don't see enough of the balance isfor job seekers for one preneurs and business owners. No excuse. I don'tthink it is. When i see people say, look if you're a business owner,entreprend, linkedin and you're, not working on your personal brain ofcompanies, brand you're missing the boat, you know in general, i get that,but for job sakers, it's often times it's not delivered with the right levelbalance in my opinion, over the last year. What has surprisedyou most about linked in and what has disappointed you? I think some of thissurprises i mean it's. You know with what happened like all social media platforms. Ithink they get the the the least amount of this sort of not accusation, but claim that you knowthey've taken positions in subtle ways in terms of how they've handled somepeople's content, i'm not talking about you know you know, and we saw somethings last spring that were just you know very, very not only just disheartening anddisappointing, but just really scary. In terms of how you know things can getout of hand really quick in a law enforcement situation, and i saw theplatform like a lot of companies. You...

...know take positions that they didn'thold before in ways that that they're, not in that same position right, soi've been disappointed in seeing that i'm kind of being a bit cagy. What i'm,what i'm saying there, but i think, pray for instance, clear i've, not i've,not appreciated some of the approach that they took to supporting some voices in that spaceand not other voices, whether you're having a balance narrative, then we canreally talk about workable solutions. I i've not appreciated that. What whati've? What i've really like, is they've continued to ask questions on how theycan make it more of a creator platform, because you know there's people thatcreate a whole lot more than me, but back to then you know four or fiveyears. You know four years ago. You know i was you know creating three. Youknow two or three times a day, and so people like myself and people that havedone much more than me made it. A c major to creator plan made a creatorplats a non creator platform or created platform. So i like what they're tryingto do what's been disappointing. So that's that's good. What's beendisappointing with that, is it doesn't look like they're, always really canvassing andseeking out input from the membership of people that you know have beenaround and done it. It doesn't have to be me, but you know, like when's thelast time you got an update from linkedin. That said, this is what wejust did. You know this is what we're doing and o by the way you know it camefrom. You know not these people, but this is what we did to really listen toour members and really give them what they want. That's that's been probablymy biggest frustration, but again it's it's like that's such asmall thing. I mean it's a great place to be they make it like. I said, very,very easy for you to not just find people do business with or to hire or to be hired by may whatotherplatform has man. This is a great thing to give a heap. What is what is? Whatare the platform? Has a sales navigar right where wow yeah facebooks got to having with three billion many peopleon facebook, three billion yeah, they don't yeah, they don't have anythinglike sales naviter. You can't. You can't find people and niched wn to avery narrow target of potential prospects. Like you can't only ten,they do a terrific job with that, with all its imperfections. What i findinteresting over the last year is that all of us been working from home. We'vebeen masters, were masters or mistresses of our own domain. Prettymuch as long as you do the work, no one's watching. You there's very andthere's some meetings, but you can be pretty flexible on your time and ithink it's allowed. A lot of people to multitask have linked on on one screen.Do their work on the other be connecting leaving comments, but whathappens when people start going back to the office in september, because i knowin the states you guys are already working in the office in canada, we'llget there in a couple o months, but how do people's use have linked in changewhen you're not at home anymore, and that you're working with people andthere there may be less time to leverage the platform? Just do youthink we'll see a discernible change in people's usage of linkedin? I do i do i mean i think i think you know again. I mean what did you doif you were? I think i'll answer. Alas, what did you do if you were a seniorlevel leader at a marketing agency? What did you do if you were? You knowsommary displaced because of the pandoniae, if you were in a positionfinancially to take some time and whether the stormgreat, but a lot of people aren't and weren't, and so you know, but you havethese skills, and so a lot of people went into got on linkedin and started.Obviously, looking for jobs, but you know also, he saw the open to work, a link in started where you're makingit in your picture very obvious to to...

...job seekers that you're available right.Well, a lot of consultants and coaches and intangible service providers didthe same thing, and so i do think you'll see a fall of, i think, is theintrinsic question like because you know companies now i mean we're hearingit depending on what report you look at and what news out, let me people arestruggling to find people for various reasons. I mean we can go down thatpath and you know you're, that same leaderworker isn't trying to be an algemer they're, not trying to be a businessowner they're trying to ride out the next fifteen years or whatever theircareer working for an organization where you know the culture is good topay is good. They can have a good life, etc exc. So the disruption with thecode created where okay now i'm going to get online and find something andlinked in, is the the the one of the probably one of the. If not the naturaloutlets? For that, i think we're going to see, i mean i'm seeing it i mean forsure, as people gone back to work, i don't know. If i answer your questionbut yeah i mean i think that that and then there's some people that have goton that they're there to stay. There's a lot of new friend the creators sincethe pandemic that put out great content every day. Sure one thing i i wanted toask you about because you focus on helping business leaders andentrepreneurs levers linked in is your thoughts on ceos being active onlinkedin, because there's one school of thought suggesting that it's a greatplace to build thought leadership in a personal brand. On the other side ofthe coin, there's there's some people who are some cos that are afraid oflindon they're, afraid of putting themselves out there. Everything has tobe vetted and that it's almost not worth the risk, and i'm wondering whereyou said. Obviously, i think i know the answer, but do you think that co shouldbe active on linked in and should be engaging for both their own personalbrands and for their own companies branding not as a general point, not withoutsome man? You know because someone said that and there's opportunity, no, i would say, if you're in a for sure,if you're in a which most businesses are, if you're, in a business where it really matters to get a sense ofwhat it's like to work with, not just the ceo but the organization, and you have the time you know and againwe're talking about. Let's just talk about a privately hell company rightbecause it he, i think the denia dynamic because is a little bitdifferent when you're publicly held- and some of all of that comes with that.So and of course, i've never been a ceo, i'm just having worked with ceos, but in bothspaces and what you're talking about and some of who work with now you knowa lot of times they choose to sit in the back seat, they're part of thecreative process or the energy on that side of the marking said, but they, butthey really want they want to be doing other things all right, and so what i'dsay it to is is not so much shouldyou be out there, but you know at the endof the day whether it's you or your team or whatever, if you're, not there,here's some. You know some some numbers right. I mean like there's almost eighthundred minute: a million people on this platform. It's still here's a fact: it's still analgorithm while they're changing it all the time. You don't need ads pen to getorganic reach. You need to inge. Somebody on your team needs to engageyour potential prospects or your audience in meaningful ways on theircontent, and that naturally brings energy, positive energy engagement. Toquote unquote your conduct, maybe not from the company page, because thoseare often times ghost towns, but you know if you have the your seniordirector of marketing, you know if you're put this way, if you're twentyfive million dollar company, that's got seventy employes, whatever it is, andyou've got a marketing person, that's not doing something on lindon andyou're in the roofing business you're missing out whether it's your co or not,whether you have e co or not so does it...

...need to be the co? No, you could argue,listen what's a co doing sitting around putting out continently to i mean it'sjust you know there now you're not going tomake everybody happy what i would rather say it, whether it's to see youor somebody, marketing or frontline account executive. Somebody needs to beout there holding the flag of your company brand going up the hill with it,because your competition is doing it. They're compete a cracking and figureit out. I mean so you're hearing that all the time for sure i would say one of the keys to mysuccess and enjoyment of linked over last year has been conversation, so ihave reached out to. I probably had a hundred and fifty conversations, and idon't mean that to boast. I just say that, because i've taken the initiativeand i enjoy the conversations and people have been open to havingconversations with me, i would think that there's a leap between connectionsand conversations, it's easy to make connections and everyone talks aboutthe fact that they have. You know thousands of followers and five hundredplus connections. But what's your advice on taking the nextstep to moving taking a relation to it to the next level and reaching out tosomebody and saying hey, i would love to connect with you and not comingacross as to sales or opportunistic yeah. I mean we create message of ourclients, so i don't think anybody's entirely. You know, and i lois for youraudience- and this is going to be a probably a little dogmatic. I don'tthink anybody's totally crack that i mean at the end of the day. I'lldefinitely tell you some tactics, but i mean the end of the day. I alwaysliking it to you know what would it look like if iwalked up to you and a very loud football game in the concession stand or, let's justsay, mutual and friend, a mutual friend right, your brother? We both know your brother or sisterspouse, whatever inviting me to a football game where you knew. I was apotential client in r for your marketing business you're in themarking, business and you know, by hearsay or by word of mouth, whatever.Whatever that i can be a potential client, so you- and i are there- whereare you? Where are you located by with mark in toronto, canada? Okay, so it'snot going to be a foot, would be a hockey game hockey yeah, a football game if you were down herein new engllsh, say, were on a no new england football game, because in thisi'll do what americans do where we make it sound like it's all about it rightin the third quarter. By that time, you and i have built report- you haven'ttried to you know my name. You know i've got ayou know. I've got kids that i now but like you haven't, really started totalk to me about the business. Now. Imagine a senary, i'm like hey man,let's go get a refill and i'm like hey now. What do you do again? That wouldbe your three to six seconds of time to get my attention, that's how you needto treat out reach right. I mean that takes a lot of thought and i knowthat's like a very probably not so likely. Example thatwould happen in real life. But that's a that's the best metaphor. I've come upwith this. Helped us increase our conversions with our clients, becausewhat's happening is first of all everybody sending everybody messages onthis side of the pandemic me less so now, presumably but and they're, not all, but people aretrying to get appointments to talk about their service and not about them.How they can solve that person's problems and cos deals. I get it. Itotally get that. I think one of the best ways is to just remember: how doyou want to be talked to and that's not going to fit everyone? You know we'vegot campaigns where we don't send up. You know the convention said thepersonalized message i mean that's been around since the beginning of thatthat's been around since re haff been started. The platform i mean my god.People are still preaching that without a lot of doubt, there is a data outthere, but it's just changed people, because everyone said okay, i'll, senda personis message and then you know hi. I was looking at your rova and theysaid a terrible one right right like i like, so what a e t e, the more the financieri say is building your approach and outreach around your client is the keepthat takes timei. It's not a one side.

So it's all. If you say to me, hey,listen! Your target is c sweet executives in big forma. That's we talkto them like that mid level, leaders and e commerce. We talked to them likethat and frontline leaders in manufacturer transportation. We talk tothem like that. Well, you can voiant some of that, but at the end of the day, the best wayto just be direct and honest as you can people don't have a lot of time. In myopinion, people don't want to sit around a chat. I'll speak for myself.If you want to chat me, i'm going to be like, let's get on a call, i don't wantto sit there a text all day. So but again, that's objective. Some people,that's all they do so it's about. Knowing your client, i will say onething and just around that success, you got to try things and measure it theone of the reasons why people will preach at nauseum around you know. Directoutreach doesn't work on lintons because a lot of times they're notmeasuring anything. You know if you're, not measuring each conversion orresponse rate of conversions and response rates on every single touch.You're, really not saying that with anything empirical, so i think it inada treat poe like you want to be treated sometimes coming right out andsaying hey mark thanks for connecting. You know a little bit about me. I am ablank blank blank blank blank blank and, in that blank light, wan that thattouches on your pain or presume paint hey. Would you like to have a call thatstill works depending on what you're telling i love o you a you know theyall sit, that's what i turned it into. So sorry, yeah yeah! Well, i love thefootball analogy football game analogy, because i think that in some cases,directly messaging someone after a connection request, makes sense, but ina lot of case it's about relationships and building report and coming acrossas sincerely being interested, and youmake a contribution and you're offering insights. The there's you've got streetcred and you've got some points and you can cash. Those points in to yourequest, date, conversation and that that's a natural way of buildingrelationships. No again, if i walked up to you in your spouse and a footballgame- and i said hey, i just want you to know- i really think and paid you acompliment. How would i say that it's the same transferable point? That'sthat's so aggressive! I mean who's doing that right. Nobody right right!So, like we treat people with care and respect, should i send a message, not amessage: that's all that should be driven by it by not just your approach,but what? What converts from from a numbers perspective? One final question:before we get into the rapid fire round, which is always a lot of fun: if you're,not one of the eight hundred million people that has jumped on the lintonlinked in band wagon, and you suddenly dawned on you that maybe linked in isthe place where i need to be. What's your advice on getting started becauseit can be intimidating when people are saying you got to create content, yougot to leave comments. You got to be connecting with people, and all youwant to do is just sort of dip your toe in the water yeah i mean this is i've. Had i've had man, i've had some really interestingdebates, bore line arguments with people on content post on this topicright. What should happen first, so i'll give you i'll give you some i'll,give you the opposite of what i think a lot of people say, look just startputting out content it nothing wrong, but turns into it's sort of a a sort of not always not always will be fair topeople out there that, because we in we can avertir our business has to brandyou i mean. Basically, we build a messaging campaign. The last thing welooked at as your profile because we want to we want to mention the profilesupports the outrage. We don't we do the process of most people build theprofile and then they build the owe we built the alras in the pro. So iunderstand personal brandy enough to sound smart at a networking en, i say: that's okay, people will say they start putting outcontent and people will just show up well, there's some merit to that.There's a lot of merit to that, especially if it's taylor to the righttarget and and it's offense, you know authentic, well, use or genuine,authentic and you're very niche, and...

...all of these things we talked about atthe same time there's something about, and these are the two analogies right.You know, content market is like you driving by you: have it a product andyou driving by my house and throwing you know whatever it would be. Let'ssay: you're, you know, you're you throw a newspaper, you throw an advertisementin my front yard, you hang it on my door, there's a reasonable chance.Let's say it's folded up in the center of something there's a reasonablechance that i'm packing a read that number one there's a reasonable chancethat i may not even see it for a week when i open it, i may not see what youwant me to see, etc, etc. That's content, marketing all right, directout, reaches high mark, there's, probably a fifty that i don'tknow the odds, because i'm not a man yea, but i'm just going it fifty tomake more is a fifty. Fifty chance that's either going to go bad or godormant or go good, so direct outreach when peoplel one of the constructive points that have aroundjust people that are heavy heavy content, content content, contentmarketing, it's it's not as direct and it's not as miserable as direct outreach, because direct out reach is a literal knock on someone's digital door.So to answer so i'm just that's a huge preface and sort of just putting landsgive it you need to have both of those clubs in your back to be six in. In mymind, it broot to be six on. You mean successful, all direct out reach, butto me it's too good of an opportunity, if you're not out spanning people andyou, if you can make friends at a rent at a bar, you can makefriends you can do direct out reach if you're good at making friends in thereal world you're going to be good at lake. Doing direct ores is the sametransfer, attitude and spirit, etc, etc, etc. It's just it's a different way ofdoing it on the front until you can shut a video and audio. So what i'd sayto people is, if i was going to do. One thing first is to really be thinkingabout the in game and working backwards. Who are the people? Let's say it's somebody's going to sellsomething right? You don't really you don't really frame the ho, but, let'sjust say it's a it's! A solo, proneur who's just left a company, they got athey got one year of you know financial runway to to figure it out. They don'tneed to work and they're building some they're going to do an online coursethey're, a coach. It doesn't really matter whatever they go. Do to me. Theyneed to think about the hoop, because once you know who the who is,even if you're, not a hundred percent sure you can start knocking on thosedoors and you can start building those connection with in advert in at annabertley, most assuredly, even at thirty five percent is building the audit. Sonow you're building your youtube channel audience now you're buildingwho is going to who's going to read that content? Don't get me wrong, youwill, if you just start putting out content, start getting new levels ofvirality. You know i start commenting oh mark and mark carts on mine and i'vegot a thousand. Followers he's got five hundred. Well now my thousand followerceivin the fact he's commenting they've got it interlocked like that, butthat's less reliable than a high mark notice. You're in you. Nowyour duram new hampshire. You know looking to connect with other peoplethere, whatever you would say, understand that put it so the contentthing all address, but putting out starting to talk to people having aplan for that in tandem with building your commented strace, because again, alot of people quit the content game because they don't get the rightattention. Even if it's fervant metrics not for a business, they don't stickwith it because they're not also building the audience on the outraced.Don't get me wrong where it started going. Viral people came to me at onepoint. I was getting six hundred to seven hundred followers a day after igot test thirty zero. I get that, but that's different, that's a differenttime. We probably won't see that on linton again now, two thousand andevenen to twenty eighteen people need to have a plan to do outreach for sure.Let's do the rapid ride around i'll. Ask you a question. You can answer itfor as long or short as you like, you're ready for this ready. Does linkedin launch a zoom likeservice?...

Yes, does it launch a club house likeservice? Yes, why you? Why you hesitant they justneed see the zoom thing would make tolson, because where did you go, ifyou didn't have zoom yet sky you had google meets, and i think those are twoprobably got trollers double you know, but sub standard is zoo. I think theymissed an operta. Definitely zoom clubhouse, only yet definitely cloves.The only like go talk to people that did club house early on and bring them in and talk to him andsay: hey. How do we do it and do it better go ahead? Will groups be as be as good asfacebook groups? Never? No, no, not never, not unless they decide to be reallygood at some things. Instead of trying to be, you know, average at a lot ofthings, which i think is a lot of the problem. Right now will linkin offeranalytics for personal accounts, or will it allow shield ot ai to dominatethe market? I think the question is: will they willthey mimic? What shield is doing? I'm still surprised that they're, not youknow an obvious shield have clients he shield are they? Are they approved ani'm, still surprised, they're not improved vendor? They haven't figuredout to help. Take that to anoline beu. They got the views, likes comments andshares, but i just don't think i think that's the long win. I answer that's anexample and again i don't know i don't work there, but shells been around forhow long now that's an example of. Obviously people wanted people like it.They want to understand things, and you know if you're, if you're, analytic,geek like me, you're getting into you- did five hundred character post onmonday to a clyde to get another five hundred care porson monday, but adifferent topic and you're tracking that you want to understand theconversion. That's an example of them, not listen!No, i don't think i don't think they'll do that. I just find ever incrediblethat people talk about field people, love shield, that the you know thepower users, love shield and and linkedin seems to be ignoring that, andi don't know what just we yeah. I don't think they would ignore. I think a gainthere. You know, i think i think the data the viewpoint. This is an anecdote,they're, more interested and other things like ad spit. What they're goingon with their ad te rights- and i mean, like you, know, o you would be caring about. You knowhow many likes comments and shares of look. You got enough figure it out withthat dude. I think that's what i feels like right: three hundred characters inposts, good or bad. Three hundred three thousand sorry, three thousand threehundred i be papos to day on my phone. I think i found a hack, i don't havethe update or something, but it didn't. Let me go back twelve hundred on myphone. I think it's good, because i've had i've had many a post i've had topair down. So i think it's a good thing. I just again it's really going tothat's why they say short for post the best i don't entirely grew. I used tosay it all the time e used to preak step from the mountain top. I thinkwhen you're a compelling writer- and you can keep somebody in thirteenhundred characters, it's something to keep them at at the three thousandlevel. So now i'm happy that they did it. Do you ever publish articles asopposed to post? I haven't done one in over two years.It's sad. I did one on new year e t thousand nineteen on in two thousandand twenty creator mode man or interesting and fo in creator mode lifestories i'm on put them together is the ryan leaf. Remember, ryan leaf he's the ryan leafof linton. If, if your audience doesn't a ryan leaf was, i think, consideredthe number one draft bus is my daneis yeah? It's not, i mean intrinsical, iknow what they were trying to do, but i you know, and again people haveswore like i'm getting more views, i'm getting this, i'm getting that, butthen, when i hear them say that they're not comparing you know, they'recomparing a highlighter to a pen in terms of the post style and time andday, and all that i haven't seen a compelling thing for i, like thatthey're trying to do things better for creative, but again just looks likethey not sure who they who their subs, who their sample set was to look at orthey talked to linked in stories a bust, a complete bust. I don't think it's abus, it's just like how do you you know...

...tell me how to i like what i reallyliked about it like i like with poles, is where it seemed like. Once you wouldpost a story. You know they're pushing it outside your network, so whereas,like a regular text post to go, you know, i think used to be they wouldthey would you know the alberan would send it to the first ten, maybe twentyfive percent of your first degree network stories were going to totalopposite was like eighty percent in second and third gree. I loved that.But the problem is you can't get analytics? You can't download theinformation like if i put out a story about you know the next best waterbottle. You know in a commoditize ef arment people are all going crazy aboutme. Getting screen shots and see you engaged it and viewed it and whateversank you poles, it's just like that, goes back to your shield analyticsthing, but they have a huge opportunity. My question back to anybody: would youpay twenty five s more a month for better analyst? I would i probably paymore than publishing a post every day there are evangelists who say that it'sabsolutely necessary and others suggest that as long as you're consistent,maybe one or two a week, that's good enough. What's your take, i never likedthat discussion without what are you trying to accomplish? I mean i know ibeat that horse. I can get on clubhouse i used to post at the high. I was doingthree to four times a day. It had a direct relationship and followership.You know when i hit when i got to probably a hundred and thirty thirty five thousand followersmore post rob more followers, there's no doubt a body because intrinsicallyi'm communicating relevancy in the algorithm, no matter who's engaging soagain, if you're trying to get more followers, i'm a fan of it becauseyou're just going to be in the feet- and you know i've seen the ones that'vegot a couple million they get like you know, and i love these new people thatcome on and you've heard of. Oh, i get more. I get more engagement than guysgot a people with millies and followers like these people. A million follows:do not care about that tin, they're, not trying to get a lot they've beendown the path of hey. I remember when i have my first beer, two light tim. Ihad one i read i had to like to like they'reover that it's a totally different game for some of those people. I know thatbecause i know some of them personally, so you have to ask: what are you tryingto accomplish and work backwards for the most part, the more you're in thefeed, the more you're going to get attention? You may not get the sameamount intention on this first verse of that post, because there's a preferenceat that point, but in terms of name recognition, branding more can be good.The unfortunate side of that is more. That's like terrible is not a goodthing, so this is what people are. Probably that are listen to waiting forme to say if you're putting out like click bate stuff stuff, that you knowyou know a fifth grader with a cell phone and time could do that's not agood thing. So i, if you're in game, you got to understand your in game. Ifyou have relevant, you know- and i don't like saying- quality becausewhat's a quality post, i don't even like what's a quality prost. What's itrest, good content, quality and good contents going to be the condent? Youare you, you know that your audience wants to hear and see a a among otherattributes if you're doing that and you're serving them. I don't have aproblem with more than once a day. Do people underrate inter estimate thevalue of comments. This is a quite room, rapid fire. They do yeah. I mean i took some time off so meanybody followed me of like no what's he talking about, like i built my thatthat i built more of that follower base on my comments than i did my my content,even though i was posting that much when you show up to you know a a popular person's post that gets a lotof engagement and you provide a lot of value like an not not just to do it,but you're bringing a lot of value to the conversation. You can see that youcan see the result. People have said, and i agree it's agibbers gain algorithm. There's some type of relevancy improvement, analgorithmic score magic thing behind the scenes. I've never seen it thatgoes on when, when you're giving to other people, whether you believethat's an algorithm thing or not, i...

...just think it's a good thing. Peoplewant. You know, people want attention on their content, they want to writeattention, but they wanted to know. What's no one's, putting out content toget zero attention right, that's called journaling, so i think i peopleunderestimated because they don't see they imediately, but but people thathave been doing it and i know that people that do it they get it. Theyseem the increase not just in the followership the increase engagement ontheir content and, if they're doing it for their business. You know some typeof ten direct, maybe about five six. Seven degrees of separation are alyingtheir business final question, and this may not applyto you because you've been on the platform for four plus years and youhave a huge following, but should people accept every connection request? No, why not? This is the only time i was going togive you a one word answer i really i you work or well. I did that i mean i did that youknow i just went in two thousand and seventeen. I was at like a thousandconnections. I didn't know anything about anything and i started gettingall these people coming. I accepted everyone until i got to like twothousand and twenty two, maybe even like twenty five zero, and that was amistake because i well i be your phrasing that wasn't a mistake. Thatwould have been a mistake. How i had a plan. I was just trying to find a job.I wasn't trying to be an onspeeding, wasn't trying to be a thought ly or wastrying even is just looking for a job which again goes back to the personalbranding. I think i did have i in that period, probably ten or elevenopportunities that didn't work out for whatever reason. But again i was in thefeet all the time and i'm sure i was communicating god does this kind ofever work like my gosh like who knows, or people were thinking that so iaccepted everyone, the the typical response to that is no don't set therewere. You should spend time, venting everyone and should be people that youwould do business with and rehire you and this and that there, which alwayssay i don't entirely, disagree with that. But, like that's where you aretoday right, i have clients that i still have and then i have then workedwith and didn't work with again of whatever reason that i connected within two thousand and seventeen that were in my network just sitting there asconsumer saying man, i've been i've been seen your content for years. I hadno idea, you did this and that can we have a call, but who can predict thatright me yeah? How? How do i look at your profile and say? Oh that's goingto happen with mark in two thousand and twenty five. So it's a painful thingbecause it takes a lot of time to that a profile right, especially if you're askeptic like me. It's like okay, wow, another coach and i'm beating coachesup, because i am one right yeah i don't make coach. I am one right, i'm lookingfor the synonym to replace that word. I think if i come up with the world i'llbe rich, there's a lot of reasons why you shouldn't and there's some reasonswhy you should, if it's just about the numbers, ten yeah go right at it, butthe end of the day, it's a whole lot easier to accept one than it is todisconnect. Personally, just the basic functions on linkedin, except versus you know disconnecting is, is easierversus hard. Dan really give a good in answer that, but you know we we do itdo what's right for your business now and what you can you know or you oryour employ. You know what you're doing as a as a professional, a lot of peoplestill close to the best i used to say, connect with everybody, blah blah, butas i've looked at it- and i know some of that's not entirely right well, you have been a fantastic rapidfire player. So thank you for that and one final question: let's talk a littlebit about your story, you spend a lot of years in bibb sales before jumpinginto linked in a two thousand and seventeen treus about what you werethinking wide linked in you. What were your thoughts in termsof using the platform provides him insight into how your business hasevolved and grown over the past four years? Yeah i'll tell you one thing: i i'llstart with that. First person work about t. One of the things we haven'tdone is embrace the traditional approaches to scaling i mean i had thehave the f the blessing or the...

...opportune work close to individualowners, specifically the last one i worked with and saw what it looks likefirst hand to not be the business owner, but to see business odes are driven byby scale scale skill again, nothing wrong with that. However, for me, i saw some of thedownside and dark side of that that you know we could we could go into if youwant, and so that's had a profound effect on me on continuing to stay. What's the wordclose, and maybe can i use the word faithful to some of my wi that i foundin two thousand and seven, which was listen? One of them was i'm not goingto take the work. If, if i can't work close to my kids, both geographicallyand emotionally, i don't do the work. What's the tigerair points fix foritself, i want to work from home until my oldest is old enough. Unless i couldwork from home. You know with a company fine too, but the emotional part is isjust taken on good business. It's one thing: when you're a businessowner, you have no business, you sort of got to type us. I get that, but there's there's something. That'shappened. I think the decision to you know say no to relationships thatjust obviously not a good fit, no matterwhat the pay is from a from a contract perspective. Has youknow that decision's been as been honored? It's allowed me to create thelife for my kids that i couldn't do before not just financially but but tobe here a be here and then aboul to cut work on and off. Why did i get? Why did it? Why did i dothat? I didn't plan on doing it. I quit a job in two thousand andseventeen that was toxic. It was a huge step of faith because i did the totalopposite of some other people. My life there, like you're, crazy, i meanyou're, a single father, you, four kids, you just come out of a marriage. Youcannot quit a job without a job and that's exactly what i did it was, andit took me about a year to get there so and for me, the reason i did is ijust wanted. There was something in me that i can't parly explain that ididn't want to look for a job on his time. I had always done right. I justit wasn't like that. You know not not not casting shed on that, but for me itjust was this place you get to real, like no. I'm going to do it different,you know something else is calling me and that's exactly what it was. I goton no platform, i mean like the first week. I got on the platform to look fora job. I just saw the feet and i was like saying all these. You know therewere some some pretty water, now big names putting out this flank. They wereall pulling from peter drucker and you know leaders are good to great gymcollins and, like oh man like i've got and i had like. I had written all myphone i venner pom now, but in the cloud i had two thousand, i don't knowhow many is about two thousand plus journals that i had written about: theloss of jobs, the loss of a child, two marriages moving four times growing upfollerers. I had all these journals, and so i just i didn't start sharingthe journals. While i was long for a job and i started to share some of the learnings while i waslooking for a job and it just. I just took off o me. I remember december two then, and seventeen iremember a five six hundred seven hundred character post at bad day wasanything less than a hundred thousand years. They were out, they were hand inview yeah they were hand and fus out, and this was right about the time ithink video came out. You could do video this way before line, but you cando a native video. I want to say october of that year. I wasn't doingany video yet, but i was just doing heavy textbooks under thirteen hundredcharacters. Sometimes one liners- and i just took off- and i was like hey ma-you know- started getting some coaching business starting working with guys onmen's issues and then i started sopies can show me how to write content. Canyou do this and how does link didn't work? And i was like oh i'm not aboutto be a linked in coach export, go whatever that's. How have that done mybest to like not have that he again there's nothing wrong with that, butyou know i've seen the ugly sign that where people...

...really push that and often times notalways often done, sometimes don't know what they're talking about so it just evolved. At some point, i metmy now business partner, who was doing direct out reach with no automation forclients, and we just put those two services together in two thousand andnineteen, so it just evolved. I mean it's been, it could have been anythingit could have been consulting. It could have been anything that will haveallowed me to stay close to my kids being er. My kids, geographically andemotionally could have been anything could have been. You know it could havebeen working in a brick and more it just it just didn't work out that way. Just as a note to people who arelistening to this conversation, then you may be curious about how michaeland i connected it was through a comment. Somebody posted something thatboth of us recognized as so self promotional. It was outrageous,so i commented on it michael commented on and he sent me an audio message. Isent him an audio message. One thing led to another, and here we are talingto each other, have a personal relationship and i think that's thepower of linked in that's the power of comments and being engaged on theplatform. You know it's amazing, to talk to people from around the worldwho are so good at what they do and have such great insight, and i want tothank you for coming on the podcast and really offering some great insight andsome guidance on how to how to use linked in and how to get the most outof the platform. One final question: where can people learn more about youand lead in social yeah? We're leading social or just youknow i put david. The recent people say: why did you use your middle namebecause isn't that the guy that shot lennon mark david japan? I always getthat from the trolls or whatever i said not, but the word dated in therebecause typically automated bo out reach doesn't drop the middle name. Hed bring it out t because nobody would call me that so i'm, like only mymother, calls me that use em when i'm in trouble, so michael david, chapman,ale or leading social com special thanks for listening to another episodeof marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review subscribeby itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast out and share via social media.If you'd like to learn more about how i help pdbs companies with a fractionalco, strategic advisor and coach connect with me on linked in or in an email tomark at markis part on co. I'll talk to you neat.

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