The Risks and Rewards of Being an Early Adopter

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Being an early adopter is not easy.

There is a risk to embrace a platform or product that isn't popular or perhaps not ready for prime time.

In 2017, Michael David Chapman walked away from his job. 

With no backup plan, he started to post on LinkedIn - sometimes three or four times a day - about his personal and professional challenges.

This is way before LinkedIn emerged as a vibrant content platform.

As an early adopter, Michael capitalized on a huge opportunity by doing what other people weren't doing.

His posts generated huge audiences and Michael has attracted 276,000 followers.

In this episode of Marketing Spark, we talk about Michael's LinkedIn journey and how he sees the platform evolving. 

We also do a rapid-fire session on all things LinkedIn.

Hi, it's Mark Evans, andyou're listening to marketing's park. Over the past eighteen months, linkedin has transformedfrom being a platform for job seekers and recruiters into a thriving community teaming withcontent and insight for people around the world. Personally, it's been a game changerfor my marketing business. Michael David Chapman, was way ahead of thepack when it came to recognize in the power of Linkedin. In two thousandand seventeen, Michael started using linkedin to talk about his personal and professional challenges. One thing led to another, a massive understatement, and Michael has establishedhimself as one of the leading voices on linked in. With more than twohundred and Fiftyzero followers. Michael is the founder of lead and social, adigital agency that helps entrepreneurs and business owners use linkedin to extend their reach andgrow their businesses. Welcome to marketing spark, Michael Hey man. Thanks for havingme. It with a great what a great intro. Appreciate it.Thank you. Thank you. Let's start with a loaded question. What's yourtake on how people have embraced linkedin over the past eighteen months? Last year, in March or April like kind of climbed on the platform thinking it wasthe same old, same old, linkedin and was pleased and excited to discoverit had changed. So I'm curious about your take on how the platform hasevolved. Well, we've all been locked at home over the last eighteen months. You, I've seen to you, polar opposites. I'll start with thefirst, starting with a with a pandemic on this side of the pandemic.It's an interesting stat. I got to find the article, but there's agentleman that wrote an article around if you he was talking about coaches and if, if you, if you would have done like just talking about how coaches, you know, the coaching space is really saturated. There seems to beone behind every tree, etc. Etc. Etc. Little Tungue in cheek there, but he had done like a keyword search prior to the pandemic andyou would get like, you know, the word coach, you might gottwo and a half million hits, meaning that word is somewhere in a profile. Now it's on in it's approaching x that. So I think people thatfound themselves displaced because of things out of their control or even in some casesthey had planned a digital transition or something, began to start doing something in thedigital space. Maybe they found themselves flat footed in that space specifically,it just took off in terms of the the the amount of people, forsure. Then there's the polar opposite where, like you talk with people like thereal estate space, the moorage space and other spaces, they just likeit's still just like like it was for me, proud of two thousand andseventeen, a great place to find talent, a good fun to find it place, a good place to find a job perhaps and read a Forbes article. It's just it's just a nation. Don't care about it. I findthat interesting because people like you and I, it feels like we're in the eitherhurricane. We're creating content, we're leaving comments, were engaging, we'redoing what we think is just the right thing to do. It just seemsnatural Le Everage linked in this respect. I find it surprising that ninety ninepercent of the people on Linkedin don't create content, don't leave comments. Someof them are lurkers that recomment. For the most part, there's a lotof people who are just not leveraging the platform and that does that surprise you? Not at all. I mean, I would say from people that arein positions where they do their own thing, they're not working for a specific companyor if they're an entrepreneur, they own their own business. That wouldbe a surprising thing because again, with a little under what you got eighthundred million people. There's got to be a segment of your you know,your market on the platform, but for people that are working, you know, your everyday wtwo position with a corporation, I can completely get it. Infact, I always sort of have an opposing view. No shock therearound people that drive personal branding for job seekers in very you know, buymy course personal brandings, the way of the pathways. I get it.I mean on some level, you know,...

...used to be your personal brand wasyour resume and then what somebody would say about you when they picked upa phone and we're looking do it a reference check. So I understand thepower social media for a job seeker, but I think you have to handlethat a little bit more careful. So I'm not surprised to see more,you know, people that hold, you know, your typical ninety five job, not doing content, but business owners, people, entrepreneurs. Yeah, that'ssurprising because it's just it's too easy to get attention on the platform.It's too easy. Before we ramble down the linkedin rabbit hole, I dowant to circle back with you on personal brand because I see a lot ofthat these days and there's so much attention and, as you say, thereare coaches and mentors and and personal branding seems to be so important these days. And my take is with personal branding, do the right things, you know, be good person and then in time your reputation will will start tobuild in a positive way. But do you think the focus is there's anoverexaggeration on personal branding these days? Yeah, I don't I wouldn't say over exaggeration. I think it's more of a maybe a lack of understanding. Imean again, I'm it's a it's a fair question, but perhaps a bitbroad, and so I'll give it a broad answer. You know, Iwould say. I'll give you an answer like if I was going to hiresomebody to help me personal branding as a job seeker, they would be somebodythat has got some either experience, evaluating experience or influence in the hiring game. They've hired somebody perhaps they've let someone go, fired someone they've had,they've worked in talent acquisition or talent development and or how to influence in thatspace, because those aren't silver bullets, because those are those are going tobe people that are going to bring what I think a more holistic view,to a more practical view, to saying hey, Ye know, anybody cango out there with a sell anybody with time and a cell phone can getout there and get attention. But is it is it the right thing?For example, when I was when I quit my job, I quit myjob without a job and at the end of the day, some of thestuff about what she started with this in Intro, I mean I think itran potential employers off. I wasn't talking anything bad or anything disparaging about aprevious employer or holding any one position or another, but I found linkedin ata time when it was really easy to to not just gain followership with driveviewership. And so you know, you got a guy that's looking for ajob in sales leadership in New England that's got a hundred thousand views on apost talking about leadership stuff. It's good stuff, but maybe that's you know, maybe we don't want someone with such a perceived personal person. I meanlike it's just you've got to handle it. So I don't think it's over exaggerated. I just think that, like the marketing that's see around it,I don't see, not all. I don't see at all, but Idon't see enough of the balance as Uster job seekers, for entrepreneurs and businessowners. No excuse, I don't think it is. When I see peoplesay look, if you're a business owner, entrepreneur on Linkedin and you're not workingon your personal brand, of companies brand, you're missing the boat.You know, in general I get that, but for job seekers it's oftentimes it'snot delivered with the right level of balance. In my opinion, overthe last year, what has surprised you most about Linkedin and what has disappointedyou? I think some of this surprises, I mean it's, you know,with what happened, like all social media platforms, I think thank itthe the the least amount of this sort of accusation, but claim that,you know, they've taken positions in subtle ways in terms of how they've handledsome people's content, and I'm not talking about you know. You know inwe saw some things last spring that we're just, you know, very,very not only just disheartening and disappointing, but just really scary in terms ofhow, you know, things can get out of hand really quick in alaw enforcement situation. As saw, the...

...platform, like a lot of companies, you know, take positions that they didn't hold before in ways that thatthat they they're not in that same position right. So I've been disappointed inseeing that. I'm kind of being a bit Cagi what I'm what I'm sayingthere, but I think the right prince is clear. I'm not. I'venot appreciated some of the approach that they took to supporting some voices in thatspace and not other voices, whether you're having a balance narrative and we canreally talk about workable solutions. I Have I've not appreciated that. What whatI've what I've really liked, is they've continued to ask questions on how theycan make it more of a creator platform, because, you know, there's peoplethat create a whole lot more than me. But back then, youknow, for five years ago, four years ago, you know, Iwas creating three, you know, two, three times a day, and sopeople like myself and people that have done much more than me. Maya cremated a creator Plat, made a creator plats, a non creator platformor creator platform. So I like what they're trying to do. What's beendisappointing. So that's that's good. What's been disappointing with that is it doesn'tlook like they're always really canvassing and seeking out input from the membership of peoplethat, you know, have been around and done it. And doesn't haveto be me, but you know, like, when's the last time yougot an update from linkedin that said this is what we just did, youknow, this is what we're doing and Oh, by the way, youknow it came from you know, not these people, but this is whatwe did to really listen to our members and really give them what they want. That's that's been probably my biggest frustration. But again, it's it's like that'ssuch a small thing. I mean it's a great place to be.They make it, like I said, very, very easy for you tonot just find people do business with or to hire or to be hired byMay what other platform has. Mean this is a great thing to give aheap what is what is what other platform has a sales navigator right where,while, yeah, facebook's got to how many what? Three billion? Howmany people on facebook? Three billion? They don't. Yeah, they don'thave anything like sales navigator. You can't. You can't find people and niche downto a very narrow target of potential prospects like you can on Linkedin.They do a terrific job with that, with all its imperfections. What Ifind interesting over the last year is that all of us have been working fromhome. We've been masters, are masters or mistresses of our own domain.Pretty much. As long as you do the work, no one's watching you. There's very other zoom meetings, but you can be pretty flexible on yourtime and I think it's allowed a lot of people to multitask. Have linkedon on one screen, do their work on the other, be connecting,leaving comments. But what happens when people start going back to the office inSeptember, because I know in the states you guys are already working in theoffice. In Canada will get there in a couple months. But how dopeople's use of linkedin change when you're not at home anymore and that you're workingwith people and there there may be less time to leverage the platform. Justdo you think we'll see a discernible change in people's usage of Linkedin? Ido, I do, man, I think. I think you know.Again, I mean, what did you do if you are under I thinkI'll answer alas. What did you do if you were a senior level leaderat a marketing agency? What did you do if you were summarily displaced becauseof the pandemic? You know, if you are in a position financially totake some time and weather the storm, great, but a lot of peoplearen't and weren't, and so you know. But you have these skills, andso a lot of people went into got on Linkedin and start obviously lookingfor jobs. But you know, also you saw the open to work linkedinstarted, where you're making it in your picture very obvious to to to jobseekers that you're available right. Well,...

...a lot of consultants and coaches andintangible service providers did the same thing, and so I do think you'll seea fall of I think is the intrinsic question, like, because you knowcompanies now, I mean, we're here in it. Depending on what reportyou look at and what news outlet me, people are struggling to find people forvarious reasons. I mean we can go down that path and you knowyou're that same leader. Worker isn't trying to be an entrepreneur, they're nottrying to be a business owner, they're trying to ride out the next fifteenyears or whatever their career working for an organization where, you know, theculture is good, to pay is good, they can have a good life,etc. Etc. So the disruption with the code created where okay,now I got to get online and find something in Linkedin is then the theone of the probably one of the, if not the natural outlets for that. I think we're going to see, I mean we're I'm seeing it.I mean for sure as people gone back to work, if answer to yourquestion. But yeah, I mean I think that that and then there's somepeople that it got on that they're there to stay. But there's a lotof new things and creators since the pandemic that put out great content every day. Sure, one thing at that I wanted to ask you about, becauseyou focus on helping business leaders and Entrepreneurs Leverage Linkedin, is your thoughts onCEO's being active on Linkedin, because there's one school of thought suggesting that it'sa great place to build thought leadership in a personal brand. On the otherside of the coin, there's there's some people who are some CEOS that areafraid of Linkedin, they're afraid of putting themselves out there, everything has tobe vetted and that it's almost not worth the risk. And I'm wondering whereyou said. Obviously I think I know the answer, but do you thinkthat CEO should be active on Linkedin and should be engaging for both their ownpersonal brands and for their own companies branding? Not as a general point, notwithout some man you know, because someone said that and there's opportunity.No, I would say if you're in a for sure, if you're ina which most businesses are, if you're in a business where it really mattersto get a sense of what it's like to work with not just the CEObut the organization, and you have the time, you know. And againwe're talking about let's just talk about a privately held company, right, becauseit did. I think that diamond dynamic is is a little bit different whenyou're publicly held and some of all that comes with that. So and ofcourse, I've never been a CEO of just having worked with CEO's boat inboth spaces, in what you're talking about and some of the work with nowyou know a lot of times they choose to sit in the back seat.There part of the creative process or the energy on that side of the markingside. But they but they really want they want me do one other things. All right, and so what I'd say the CEO is is not somuch should you be out there, but you know, at the end ofthe day, whether it's you or your team or whatever, if you're notthere, here's some you know some some numbers, right. I mean likethere's almost eight hundred minute million people on this platform. It's still here's afact. It's still an algorithm. While they're changing all the time. Youdon't need adspend to get organic reach. You need to in get somebody onyour team needs to engage your potential prospects of your audience and meaningful ways ontheir content, and that naturally brings energy, positive energy engagement to quote unquote,your content, maybe not from the company page, because those are oftentimesghost towns, but you know, if you have the your senior director ofmarketing. You know your if you're put this way, if you're twenty fivemillion dollar company that's got seventy employees, whatever it is, and you've gota marketing person that's not doing something on Linkedin and you're in the roofing business, you're missing out, whether it's your CEO or not, whether you're theCEO or not. So does it need...

...to be the CEO? No,you could argue. Listen, what's a CEO doing sit around putting out contenton linked I mean, it's just you know, there you're not going tomake everybody happy. What I would rather say it's whether it's a CEO orsomebody marketing or frontline account executive, somebody needs to be out there holding thethe flag of your company grant and going up the hill with it, becauseyour competition is doing it. Their competitions cracking and figure it out. Imean, so you're hearing that all the time, for sure. I wouldsay one of the keys to my success and enjoyment of linked over the lastyear has been conversations. So I have reached out to probably had a hundredand fifty conversations, and I don't mean that to boast, I just saythat because I've taken the initiative and I enjoy the conversations and people have beenopen to having conversations with me. I would think that there's a leap betweenconnections and conversations. It's easy to make connections and everyone talks about the factthat they have thousands of followers and five hundred plus connections. But what's youradvice on taking the next step, to moving taking a relationship to the nextlevel and reach out to somebody and saying hey, I would love to connectwith you and not coming across as to salesy or opportunistic? Yeah, Imean, we create message for our clients. So I don't think anybody's entirely youknow, and I was just for your audience and this is going tobe a probably a little dogmatic, I don't think anybody's totally crack that.I mean, at the end of the day, I guess I'll definitely tellyou some tactics, but I mean, the end of the day, alwaysliken it to you know, what would it look like if I walked upto you at a very loud football game in the concession stand? Or,let's just say a mutual friend, a mutual friend. All right, yourbrother, we both know your brother or sister, spells whatever, invited meto a football game where you knew I was a potential client and you foryour marketing business, your you're the marketing business. You and you know,by hearsay or by word of mouth, where or whatever, that I couldbe a potential client. So you and I are there. Where you at? Where you located, by the way, mark in Toronto, Canada. Okay, so it's not going to be foot would be a hockey game,hockey M football game. If you're down here in new English, say we'reout of new land, New England football game, because ill this I I'lldo what Americans do, where we make it sound like it's all about usright in the third quarter. By that time, you and I've built rapportyou haven't tried to. You Know My name, you know I've got ayou know I've got kids that are but, like you haven't really started to talkto me about the business. Now, imagine a scenario. Im My,hey man, let's go get a refill. I'm like Hey, now, what do you do again? That would be your three to six secondsof time to get my attention. That's how you need to treat outreach right. I mean that takes a lot of thought and I know that's like avery, probably not so likely example it would happen in real life, butthat's a that's the best metaphor I've come up with. This helped us increaseour conversience with our clients, because what's happening is, first of all,everybody sending everybody messages on this side of the pandemic more less so now,presumably, but and they're not all, but people are trying to get appointmentsto talk about their sirs and talk about them how they can solve that person'sproblems and close deals. I get it. I totally get that. I thinkone of the best ways is to just remember how do you want tobe talked to? And that's not going to fit everyone. You know,we've got campaigns where we don't send am you know the commential, send apersonalized message. I mean that's been around since the beginning of that that's beenaround since Reehoffman started the platform. I mean, my God, people arestill preaching that without a lot of data. There is the doubt out there,but it's just changed people because everyone said, okay, I'll send apersonalized message and then you know, hi, I was looking at your profile andthey said the terrible one right like it's like, so what the thethe more definancer, I'd say, is building your approach and outreach around yourclient is the key. That takes time. It's not a one size fits all. If you say to me,...

Hey, listen, your target isceasweet executives in big farm that's we talked to them like that. Midlevel leadersin e commerce, we talked to them like that, and frontline leaders inmanufacturing or transportation, we talked to them like that. When you can boilerplate some of that, but at the end of the day the best wayis to just be direct and honest as you can. People don't have alot of time. In my opinion, people don't want to sit around achat. I'll speak for myself. If you want to chat with me,I'm going to be like, let's get on a call. I don't wantto sit there and text all day. So but again, that's a subjective. Some people that's all they do. So it's about knowing your client.I will say one thing and just around that success. You got to trythings and measure it. The one of the reasons why people will preach atnauseum around you know, direct outreach doesn't work on Linkedin's because a lot oftimes they're not measuring anything. You know, if you're not measuring each conversion orresponse rate of conversions and response race on every single touch, you're reallynot saying that with anything empirical. So I think at the end a treatpeople like you want to be treated, sometimes coming right out and saying hey, mark, thanks for connecting. You know a little bit about me.I am a blank, blank, blank, blank, blank blank, and inthat blank, blank blank, that that touches on your pain, orpresume pain. Hey, would you like to have a call? That stillworks, depending on what you're selling. I love if you're asking me downon the tail side, but that's what I turned it into. So sorry. Yeah, yeah, well, I love the football analogy, football gameanalogy, because I think that in some cases directly messaging someone after a connectionrequest makes sense, but in a lot of case it's about relationships and buildingrapport and coming across as sincerely being interested and you make a contribution and youroffering insights. There's there's you've got street cred and you've got some points andyou can catch those points in to request a conversation and that that that's anatural way of building relationships. No, again, if I walked up toyou and your spouse and a football game and I said Hey, I justwant you to know I really think and paid you a compliment, how wouldI say that? It's the same transferable point. That's that's so aggressive.mean. WHO's doing that? Right? Nobody right. Right. Treat itlike you treated people, with care and respect. Should I send a message? Not a message, that's all. That should be driven by it,by not just your approach, but what what converts from it from a numbersperspective. One final question before we get into the ray fire around, whichis always a lot of fun. If you're not one of the eight hundredmillion people that has jumped on the linked and Linkedin bandwagon and you suddenly dawnedon you that maybe Linkedin is the place where I need to be, what'syour advice on getting started, because it can be intimidating when people are sayingyou got to create content, you got to leave comments, you got tobe connecting with people and all you want to do is just sort of dipyour toe in the water. Yeah, I mean, this is I've had. I've had, man, I've had some really interesting debates, borderline arguments, with people on content posts on this topic. Right, what should happenfirst? So I'll give you. I'll give you some I'll give you theopposite of what I think a lot of people say. Look, just startputting out content. There's nothing wrong with that. But turns into it's sortof a sort of not always, not always will be fair to people outthere. That because we, and we inadvertently are our business has to brandyou. I mean basically, when we build a messaging campaign, the lastthing we look at it your profile, because we want to we want tomake sure the profile supports the outreach. We don't we do the process ofmost people build a profile and then they build the outreach. We build theoutreachs in the profile. So I understand personal branding enough to sound smart ata networking of that. I say it's okay. People will say they startputting out content and people will just show up. Well, there's some meritto that. There's a lot of merit to that, specially if it's Taylorto the right target and and it's oftent. You know, authent will use theor genuine, authentic and your very...

...niche and all of these things youtalk about. At the same time, there's something about and these are thetwo analogies, right. You know, content marketing is like you driving by, you having a product, and you driving by my house and throwing,you know, whatever it would be. Let's say you're you know you're youthrow a newspaper, you throw an advertisement in my frontyard. You hanging onmy door. There's a reasonable chance I'm let's say it's folded up in thecenter of something. There's a reasonable chance that I'm talking at read that numberone. There's a reasonable chance that I may not even see it for aweek. When I open it, I may not see what you want meto see, etc. Etc. That's content marketing, all right. Directoutreach is high mark. There's probably a fifty fi what. I don't knowthe odds because I'm not a man. Yes, but I'm just going tofifty to make more a fifty chance that's either going to go bad or godormant or go good. So direct outreach, when people one of the constructive pointsthat have around just people that are heavy, heavy content, content,content, content marketing. It's it's not as direct and it's not as measurableas direct outreach, because direct outreach is a literal knock on someone's digital door, so to answer. So I'm just that's a huge preface of sort ofjust put the lands give it. You need to have both of those clubsin your back to be success. In my mind it hard not to besuccess. You meet successful aut direct outreach, but to me it's too good ofan opportunity. If you're not outspamming people and you if you can makefriends at a at a bar, you can make friends, you can dodirect outreach. If you're good at making friends in the real world you're goingto be good at mate. Doing direct outreach is the same transfer will,attitude and spirit, etc. ETCEDRIC, etc. It's just it's a differentway of doing it on the front end until you can shoot a video andaudio. So what I'd say that people is, if I was going todo one thing first is to really be thinking about the end game and workingbackwards. Who are the people? Let's say it's somebody's going to sell something. Right, you didn't really you don't really frame the WHO, but let'sjust say it's a it's a solo preneur who's just left a company. Theygot they got one year of, you know, financial runway to figure itout. They don't need to work and they're building something. They're going todo an online course, they're a coach. It doesn't really matter whatever they do. To me they needed to think about the WHO because once you knowwho the WHO is, even if you're not a hundred percent sure, youcan start knocking on those doors and you can start building those connections, which, in advert in and of early, most assuredly, even at thirty fivepercent, is building the audience. So now you're building your youtube channel audience. Now you building who is going to WHO's going to read that content?Don't get me wrong, you will if you just start putting out content,start getting new levels of virality. You know, I start commenting on markand Mark Kirk's on mine and I've got a thousand followers, he's got fivehundred. Will now my thousand follower receiving the fact he's commenting? They've gotit interlocked like that. But that's less reliable than high arc notice you're in. You know, you Durham, New Hampshire, you know, looking toconnect with other people there. Whatever you would say, understand that. Putit so the content thing all address, but putting out, starting to talkto people, having a plan for that in tandem with building your content strategy, because again a lot of people quit the content game because they don't getthe right attention. Even if it's for vanity metrics, name for a business, they don't stick with it because they're not also building the audience on theoutreach side. Don't get me wrong, when I started going viral, peoplecame to me. At one point I was getting six hundred to seven hundredfollowers a day after I got past thirtyzero. I get that, but that's different. That's a different time. We probably won't see that on Linkedin again. That was two thousand and seventeen. Two Thousand and eighteen. People needto have a plan to do outreach. For sure. Let's do the rapidright around. I'll ask you a question. You can answer it for as longor short as you like. You're ready for this ready. Does linkedinlaunch a zoom like service? Yes,...

...does it launch a clubhouse like service? HMM, yes, why you? Why you hesitant? They just needto see. The zoom thing would make total sense, because where did yougo if you didn't have zoom? Yet skype, Google meets and I thinkthose are two probably get trollers double, you know, not double, butsubstandard zoom. I think they missed an opportunity with definitely zoom, clubhouse only, yet definitely club out. The only like go talk to people that didclub house early on and bring them in and talk to him and say,Hey, how do we do it and do it better? Go ahead.will groups be as ever, be as good as facebook groups? Never.No, no, not, never. Not, unless they decide to bereally good at some things instead of trying to be, you know, averageat a lot of things, which I think is a lot of the problemright now. Will linkedin offer analytics for personal accounts or will it allow shieldDOT AI to dominate the market? I think the question is, will theywill they mimic what shield is doing? I'm still surprised that they are not. You know and I've used shield. I have clients you shield. Arethey are they have approven? I'm still surprised there are another provender they haven'tfigured out to help take that to another little they got the views, likes, comments and shares, but I just don't think. I think that's thelong winded answer. That's an example and again, I don't know, Idon't work there, but shields been around for how long now? That's anexample of obviously people want it. People like it. They want to understandthings and you know, if you're a you're analytic geek like me, you'regetting into you did five hundred character post on Monday to a glide to getanother five hundred care posts on Monday, but a different topic and you're trackingthat. You want to understand the conversion. That's an example of they're not listen. No, I don't think. I don't think they'll do that.I just find it incredible that people talk about Shield People Love Shield then youknow the power users love shielding and linkedin seems to be ignoring that and Idon't know what just again, I don't think they would ignore I think Igain there. You know, I think. I think the data, the viewpoint, this is an anecdote. They're more interested in other things like adspent with the going on with their advisis, and I mean like you know guy, you would be carried about. You know how many lights, commentsand shares? If you look, you got enough. figure out what thatdude. That's what it feels like right. Three hundred characters in post, goodor bad. Three hundred, three thousand, sorry, three thou threehundred to be bound the post. Today on my phone I think I founda hack. I don't have the update or something, but it didn't letme go as one hundred on my phone. I think it's good because I've hadI've had many a post I've had to pair down. So I thinkit's a good thing it just again. It's really going to that's why theysay short form post the best. I don't entirely agree. I used tosay it all the time. Used to preach that from the mountain top.I think when you're compelling writer and you can keep somebody in one thousand threehundred characters, it's something to keep them at at the three thousand levels.So now I'm happy that they did it. Do you ever publish articles as opposedto post? I haven't done one in over two years. It's saidI did one on New York the e two thousand and nineteen going in twothousand and twenty creator mode men or interesting, and if so, why? Creatormode like stories. I'm will put them together. Is the Ryan Leaf. Remember Ryan Leaf? He's the Ryan Leaf of Linkedin. If you ifyour audience doesn't, a Rian Leaf was, I think, consider the number onedraft bus. It's nice. Yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's not. I mean in terriensically know what they were trying to do, butI, you know, and again people have sworn like I've getten more views, I'm getting this, I'm getting that. But then when I hear them saythat they're not comparing, you know, they're comparing a highlighter to a pin. In terms of the Post Style and time and day and all that, I haven't seen a compelling thing for I like that they're trying to dothings better for creative but again just looks like they not sure who they who, they're subs who their sample set was to look at and they talked tolinkedin stories a bust, a complete bust?...

I don't think it's a bust.It's just like how do you? How you know? Tell me howto. I like. What I really liked about it, like I likewith Poles, is where it seemed like once you would post a story,you know they're pushing it outside your network. So where's like a regular text postscould go? You know, I think used to be they would,they would, you know, the alborum would send it to the first ten, maybe twenty five percent of your first degree network stories were going to total. Opposite was like eighty percent to the second and third. Agree. Ilove that. But the problem is you can't get analytics, you can't downloadthe information. Like if I put out a story about, you know,the next best water bottle, you know in a commoditized environment, and peopleare all going crazy about it, I got screenshots as you engaged it andviewed it and whatever. Same thing with Poles. It's just like that goesback to your shield analytics thing. But they have a huge opportunity. Myquestion back to anybody. Would you pay twenty five dollars more a month forbetter analyx? I would probably pay more than them publishing a post every day. There are evangelists who say that it's absolutely necessary and others suggest that aslong as you're consistent, maybe one or two a week that's good enough.With your take, I never like that discussion. Without what what are youtrying to accomplish. I mean, I know I beat that horse. Icould on the clubhouse. I used to post at the height I was doingthree to four times a day. It had a direct relationship and followership.You know when I hit when I got to probably a hundred and thirty thirtyfivezero followers, more poster of more followers. There's no doubt about it, becauseintrinsically I'm communicating relevancy in the algorithm, no matter who's engaging. So again, if you're trying to get more followers, I'm a fan of itbecause you're just going to be in the feed. And you know, I'veseen the ones that I've got a couple million. They get like you know, and I love these New People that come on and you've heard of.Oh, I get more. I get more engagement than guys got any ofpeople with millions of followers like those people million followers do not care about thatstatement. They're not trying to get a lot. They've been down the pathof Hey, I remember when I have my first beer to like what from? I remember when I had a found likes to like. They're over that. It's a totally different game for some of those people in it. Iknow that because I know some of them personally. So you have to askwhat are you trying to accomplish and work backwards. But the most part,the more you're in the feed, the more you're going to get attention.You may not get the same amount of tention on this first versus that postbecause there's a preference at that point, but in terms of name recognition branding, more can be good. The unfortunate side of that is more that's liketerrible is not a good thing. So this is what people are probably thatare listening to waiting for me to say. If you're putting out like clickbait stuff, stuff that you know, you know a fifth grader with a cellphone and time could do, that's not a good thing. So if ifyou're in game, you got to understand your end game and if you haverelevant you know, and I like saying quality, because what's a quality post? I don't even like what's a quality post. What's it? What's goodcontent? Quality and good content's going to be the content your he would youknow your audience wants to hear and see in and among other attributes, ifyou're doing that and you're serving them. I don't have a problem with morethan once a day. Do people under race to interestimate the value of comments? This isn't quite a rapid fire they do. I'm it out. Yeah, I mean I took some time off. So mean, anybody's followed me oflike, what's he talking about? Like I built my that that Ibuilt more of that follower base on my comments than I did my content,even though it was post that much. When you show up to you know, a popular person's post, that gets a lot of engagement and you providea lot of value, like and not not just to do it, butyou're bringing a lot of value to the conversation. You can see that,you can see the result. People have said, and I agree. It'sa giver's Gain Algorithm. There's some type of relevancy improvement algorithmic score, magicthing behind the scenes. I've never seen it. That goes on when whenyou're getting to other people. Whether you believe that's an algorithm the thing ornot, I just think it's a good thing. People want, you know, people want at tension on their content.

They want to ride attention, butthey wanted to know one's no one's putting out content to get zero attention. Right. That's called journaling. So I think people underestimated because they don'tsee the immediate Rlie. But but people that have been doing it, andI know that people that do it, they get it. They've seen theincrease, not just in the followership, the increase engagement on their content andif they're doing it for their business, you know, some type of indirectmaybe about five, six seven degrees of separation, Roi on their business.Final question, and this may not apply to you because you've been on theplatform for four plus years and you've a huge following, but should people acceptevery connection request? No, why not? This is the only time I wasgoing to give you a one word answer. I really thouldn't gonna giveyou a word order. Well, I did that, I mean I didthat. You know, I want to two thousand and seventeen. I wasat like a thousand connections. I didn't know anything about anything and I startedgetting all these people coming. I accepted everyone until I got to like twothousand and twenty two, maybe even like twenty Fivezero, and that was amistake because, well, let me rephrase it. That wasn't a mistake.That would have been a mistake. How to have a plan. I wasjust trying to find a job. I wasn't trying to be an entrepreneur,I wasn't trying to be a thought leader. was trying to do me. It'syour looking for a job, which again goes back to the personal branding. I think I did have in that period probably ten or eleven opportunities thatdidn't work out for whatever reason. But again I was in the feed allthe time and I'm sure I was communicating. Does this guy ever work? Like, my Gosh, like, who knows? Or people were thinking that. So I accepted everyone. The the typical response to that is no,don't step every you should spend time vetting everyone and should be people that youwould do business with, them would hire you, and this and that.There's which always say. I don't entirely disagree with that, but like,that's where you are today. Right. I have clients that I still haveand then I had but then worked with and didn't work with again for whateverreason, that I connected with in two thousand and seventeen that were in mynetwork, just sitting there as consumer, saying, man, I've been I'vebeen seeing your content for years. I had no idea you did this andthat. Can we have a call? But who can predict that, right? I mean, yeah, how do how do I look at your profileand say, oh, that's going to happen when Mark in two thousand andtwenty five? So it's a painful thing because it takes a lot of timeto vet a profile right, especially if you're a skeptic like me. It'slike, okay, Oh, wow, another coach, and I'm beating coachesup because I am one. Right. Yeah, I don't need coaches,I am one. Right. I'm looking for the synonym to replace that word. I think if I come up with a world I'll be rich. There'sa lot of reasons why you shouldn't and there's some reasons why you should.If it's just about the numbers, then yeah, go right at it,but the end of the day it's a whole lot easier to accept one thanit is to disconnect for someone. And just the basic functions on Linkedin,except versus you know, disconnecting. This is easier versus hard. I'll seereally give a good consis answer that. But you know, we do it. Do what's right for your business now and what you can you know oror your port. You know what you're doing as a as a professional.A lot of people still close to the vest. I used to say couldthat with everybody, Bla Blah, but as I've looked at it, Iknow some of that's not entirely right. Well, you have been a fantasticrapid fire player, so thank you for that. And one final question.Let's talk a little bit about your story. You spend a lot of years andBB sales before jumping into linkedin in two thousand and seventeen. Curious aboutwhat you were thinking why Linkedin. What were your thoughts in terms of usingthe platform? Provides some insight into how your business has evolved and grown overthe past four years? Yeah, I'll tell you one thing. I'll startwith that first person work back. But one of the things we haven't doneis embrace the traditional approaches to scaling. I mean I I had the hadthe blessing or the opportunity to work close...

...to individual owners, specifically last one. I work with and Saul, what it looks like firsthand to not bethe business owner but to see business owners are driven by by scale, scale, scale, again, nothing wrong with that. However, from me.I saw some of the downside and dark side of that that, you know, we could we could go into if you want, and so that that'shad a profound effect on me on continuing to stay a was the word closeand maybe can I use the word faithful to some of my why that Ifound in two thousand and seventeen, which was listen. One of them wasI'm not going to take the work if, if I can't work close to mykids, both geographically and emotionally, I don't do the work. What'sthe geographical points speak for itself. I want to work from home until myoldest is old enough and unless I could work from home, you know it. With a company fine too. But the emotional part is this just takenon good business. It's one thing when you're a business owner. You haveno business. You sort of got to take this. I get that,but there's there's something that's happened. I think the decision to, you know, say no to relationships that just obviously not a good fit in no matterwhat the pay is from a from a contract perspective, has you know,that decision has been it's been honored. It's allowed me to create the lifefor my kids that I couldn't do before, not just financially, but but tobe here, be here and then to be able to cut work onand off. Why did I get why did it? Why did I dothat? I didn't plan on doing that. I quit a job in two thousandand seventeen. That was toxic. It was a huge step of faithbecause I did the total opposite of some other people my life. They werelike, you're crazy, you, I mean, you're single father, youfor kids, you just come out of a marriage, you cannot quit ajob about a job, and that's exactly what I did. It was andit took me about a year to get there. So and for me,the reason I did is I just wanted there's something in me that I can'tquid of explain to I didn't want to look for a job on his time. I'd always done it. I just it wasn't like that's, you know, not not my casting shade on that, but for me it just was thisplace you get to where you like no, I'm going to do itdifferent. You know, something else is calling me, and that's exactly whatit was. I got on the platform. I mean like the first week Igot on the platform to look for a job. I just saw thefeed. It was like seeing all these you know, there were some somepretty what are now big names, putting out this like they were all poemfrom Peter Drucker and, you know, leadership good to great, Jim Collinsand like Oh man, like I've got and I had like I had writtenall my phone. I have a newer phone now, but in the cloudI had two thousand, I don't know how many S, about two thousandplus journals that I had written about the loss of jobs, the loss ofa child, two marriages, moving four times, going up followerless. Ihad all these journals and so I just I didn't start sharing the journals whileI was looking for a job, but I started to share some of thelearnings while I was looking for a job and I just I just took off. I mean I remember December, two thousand and seventeen. I remember afive, six, hundred, seven, hundred character post. A bad daywas anything less on a hundred thousand years. They were out. They were handingview yeah, they were handing views out, and this was right aboutthe time, I think, video came out. You could do video thisway before live, but you could do a native video. I want tosay October of that year. I wasn't doing any video yet, but Iwas just doing heavy text books under three hundred characters, sometimes one liners,and I just took off and I was like Hey, may you know,started getting some coaching business, started working with guys on on on men's issues, and then I started so hey, can show me how to write content? Can you do this? And how does linkedin work? And I waslike, Oh, I'm not about to be a linkedin coach expert. Guys, whatever that's, I don't have that. I've done my best to like nothave the there again, there's nothing wrong with that, but you know, I've seen the ugly side of that where people really push that and oftentimes, not always often done, sometimes don't...

...know what they're talking about. Soit just evolved. At some point I met my now business partner who wasdoing direct outreach with no automation for clients and we just put those two servicestogether in two thousand and nineteen. So it just evolved. I mean it'sbeen it could have been anything. It could have been consulting, it couldhave been anything that will allow me to stay close to my kids. Beinghere marquides geographically and emotionally. Could have been anything could have been. Itcould have been working in a brick and work. It just it just didn'twork out that way. Just as a note to people who are listening tothis conversation and you may be curious about how Michael and I connected, itwas through a comment. Somebody posted something that both of us recognized as soself promotional. It was outrageous. So I commented on it. Michael commentedon it. He sent me in an audio message, I sent him anaudio message. One thing led to another and here we are talking to eachother and maybe a person relationship, and I think that's the power of Linkedin. That's the power of comments and being engaged on the platform. You know, it's amazing to talk to people from around the world who are so goodat what they do and have such great insight, and I want to thankyou for coming on the podcast and really offering some great insight and some guidanceon how to how to use linkedin and how to get the most out ofthe platform. One final question. Where can people learn more about you andlead in social yeah, we're lead in Socialcom or just you know. Iput David. The recent people say why did you use your middle name,because isn't that the guy that shot Lennon? Mark David Chapman? I always getthat from the trolls or whatever. So not. I put the wordDavid and there because typically automated bought outreach doesn't drop the middle name. Thenbring it out that because nobody would call me that. So I'm like,only my mother calls me that. Use them what I'm in trouble. SoMichael David Chapminal then or lead in socialcoms best plays. Thanks for listening toanother episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, leave a review, subscribe by Itunes, spotify or your favorite podcast APP, and share viasocial media. If you'd like to learn more about how I help BBS ascompanies, it's a fractional CMO strategically buysor and coach. Connect with me onlinkedin or send an email to mark at marketing sparkcom. I'll talk to younext time. I.

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