Turning Up the Volume on Conversational Marketing

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

For many B2B SaaS companies, conversations are the ultimate success metric.

When customers directly engage with you, relationships are established and, as important, the sales journey is jump-started.

On this episode of Marketing Spark, Mark Kilens, Drfit's VP of Content & Community, talks about how conversation marketing gained momentum last year at a time when conferences disappeared.

Drift pioneered conversation marketing with the introduction of an AI-powered chatbot that attempts to engage, understand and recommend solutions.

Mark and I also talk about Drift's approach to content marketing, the importance of content distribution, and some of the metrics used to assess content marketing success.

Hi, it's Mark Evans and you'relistening to marketing spark podcast that features conversations withmarkers and entrepreneurs in the trenches as a Bob Sass marketer, I'msurrounded by customer Metro and tell Sul conversion ratios and Quita the endof the day. I'm a big believer in conversation. A lot of business happensbecause you connected with customers of their needs. Interesting. When thathappens, sales are a lot easier and faster on today's podcast, I'm talking withMark Killen, VP content and community at drift. The pioneer and leader inconversational marketing welcome to marcene spark mark. Thank you markgreat to be with you today. Let's start by defining conversationalmarketing, what is it, what makes it so effective yeah start at the top I meanconversation. Marketing was something that drift created back in two thousandand sixteen it's been around for a long time and it's really gained a lot oftraction. Conversational marketing allows you to engage instantly a veryhyper personalized way with your customers and Biers to ultimatelycreate more pipeline and accelerate revenue. The key to it, though, is it'sin service of creating a better buying experience, a better digital buyingexperience with that notion of like personalized messaging personalized,help personalized assistance. If you will to guide you guide you through thebind process. So how does conversational marketinghappen? I mean obviously they're chat bots. There are conversations believeit or not with real people. Maybe you can define the different ways thatconversation marketing at happens in the wild. It's another good question I mean we.We took a very hard look at what is the...

...structure of a conversation and weboiled it down to three things, and these three things really died. A lotof how a lot of how we build product at drift, how we teach people to useconversation, marketing and sales. What we call this is the conversationalframework and it's three pieces engage understand recommend. So how do youengage one of your buyers or customers, like, I said, any, very relevant,contextual, personalized way when they come to a website? We can. We canunpack that if you want, how do you then understand a bit more about themin the traditional sense of marketing mark it's like qualification, right orjust qualification, but it's really understanding more about their intent,demotivating who they are. How are they feeling that day, all of those kind ofsignals and you at the same time, through a conversation either with aCHAPA and AI? You know virtual assistant or another human being livechat are helping. Maybe them understand a bit more about your business or whatyou can offer them in that moment, just like a natural natural conversation,you know, would would occur, and then there's ultimately like arecommendation and there might be multiple recommendations through aconversation, but in a lot of these interactions with conversationalmarketing, they don't last too too long. So thethe recommendation typically is at the end of the conversation. At least youknow it's like I'm from a marking perspective, it's like a called toaction. If you will it's like, what's the next best action, we can help thisperson who's visiting our website looking at something? What's the next best action? Is it tomaybe go to someone on the sales team? Is it some more marketing type content?Is it a is a support or service type inquiry? How can we recommend and guidethem to the next best thing? So, if you think about it, just engage understand,recommend the power in that framework. That's how that's the genesis of all things:Conversational Marketing and sales. I love that framework. I love thesimplicity and the fact that it really had identifies the key pillars when itcomes to the customer journey and I...

...like to circle back a little bit toengage, because in my business my position myself is someone who helps bbcompanies attract and engage, but the reality is engaging consumers. These days isextremely hard. I mean there there's a study that suggests that they see ahundred thousand words or audio or ads or Social Media Day, so there's so muchinformation coming at them that for a marketer, it's a huge challenge tryingto get someone to stop even for a short period of time. Can you elaborate onthe link between Conversational Marketing and engaged? How do they worktogether? The? How do they allow companies to really pull in a customer?So you can start a conversation and get them down the buyers journey. I mean to me like in the way we thinkabout it at drift. Marketing these days is a function of building a relation ship and building astrong trust bond. If you will like I like it, I think of it almost as like achain right, there's links in the chain and what marketers should be trying todo is add more links to that trust chain right and it's a sensitive chainright. I can break it almost any time with really one bad engagement orinteraction. So if I'm an engagement standpoint, what conversation marketingtries to do is it tries to not only empower the marketer and the salesperson, but the visitor to give them the power to to give them the power ofthe buying process that they want to go through right, like they most people,and some of this comes from our state of conversation, marketing survey thatwill talk. I'm sure more about some of this comes from Gartner Forester.There's many more people these days. That really don't want to talk to salesper se. No marketing and sales are some of the least trusted. You know jobsright out there, so it's even more important to the common I may just aminute ago, like about the trust chain and how you build that so form anengagement standpoint. It's like how do...

...you make that experience? Typically,the digital side of the experience feel as relevant and as helpful to eachbatter. So from a marketers perspective, it's flipping the idea of your websiteto be very biocentric and and understand who's coming to the website.Conversation market helps. You understand who comes to the websitewhere are they coming from and where are they in the purchase journey thatthe buying er or or the customer experience journey? How are you goingto frame it so? Where are they in that and then what page are they on? So, ifyou take those three, those technically four things, but it's who the were inthe? What that's going to help you then start to shape out. How do you bestengage with this person, but then a second thing has to happen as well.What what's were most successful customers? Do customers like a DobeOCTA, etc. They also then make sure that when one of those visitors come tothe website that we know is either in market or out of market but qualified,but might not be showing really really high levels of intent, they're stillgoing to notify the sales owner the account owner at the company of thatvisitor of that visit and and it's on then the salesperson to be enabled toknow what to do in that situation. If they're free Shure, they try to kind ofjump into that. You know interaction and engagement and reach out in areally human personalized way sure they follow up the next day should theyfollow up in five minutes. So it's doing not only the front and ChangeManagement of what they experience of the website from an engagementstandpoint, but it's also making for the back into more clothes of how youget your sales team now involved. In these conversations, that's that's the key mark. It's bothsides of that coin. The other angle that I want to ask you about is thefact that I think it's Gartner suggests that a customer has done about is aboutseventy. We, seventy percent down the path down the buyers path before theyeven touch a company and they've done...

...the research they've looked at otherwebsites. They've looked at you know, analyst research they've checked outcapter or go so there arm with a lot of information. So by the time they hitthe website they're. Looking for something else or looking for somelooking for engagement, something personal in relevant, I guess that'swhere conversational market can really fill the gap. That final thirty percent,that you need. A customer to get before they make the purchase. You make agreat point. I A I say it like this. Conversation marking in sales helps theempowered bier body in a nutshell, that's a great way to explain theexperience for sure a hundred percent before move on. I did want to ask you alittle bit about drift. I mean this is a company that has had tremendousgrowth enjoys a very high profile as they set off the top there's thepioneers and conversation of marketing. How did I get to where it is today like?What was that moment where the company realized that Conversational Marketingwas the path to success and provide a little bit like? How did the companySTART? What was the original mandate yeah? The company started way back intwo thousand and fourteen. You know two thousand and fifteen. That was thoseare the founding years David Cancel and alias Taras. You know, that's that'swhen they started it. It was not originally conceived as a conversationmarketing what David and he leis they're brilliant in many things, butwhat they're so good at is obsessing over learning from the customer, and weactually have a leadership principle. One of our eight at drift, that is, that is called put the customer at thecenter of everything you do so that they just take from a productdevelopment standpoint. So first like product market fed, then eventuallythat you go to market fit. But if you talk about product market fit they take.This lens are like: Let's learn through quick feedback loops from customers.Using these different ideas were spinning up and turning into somethingusable from from a software standpoint and see what sticks, so they wouldthrough few iterations it started as almost like an HR thing.At one point, there was like an Anna...

...tape tool for, like your iphone appthere's a little called Anita. I think I used it for a little bit. Then they start to realize an messaginglike so they're also really great at and what we do it drift. As we look atthe trends that are out that are outside of almost anyone's control,like what's changed in human behavior, what's change and how we buy, how welive, etc, and how do then do those things apply in the context of BB? Sothere were some massive trends happening right. The rise of mobilethat's been a trend over the last fifteen years. The rise of mobilereally then finally allowed the rise of messaging to occur. I mean I was usinga Ol, instant messaging mark. You know I'm sure you'd use that you're smilingway back in the day, but like it wasn't really in in a every day where youcould usually go to your computer sit down like it was like you know, I hadto be your house because of mobile, because then messaging platforms and technology tools werebuilt on top of mobile. It's like wait. A minute, there's a whole newcommunication paradigm. So that's almost the genesis of likeconversational market in sales, where it's like everything now is becomingthat much more conversational through the power of these digital technologiesand diti platforms, and now businesses need to adapt to that because that'show humans are communicating, so that was really the starting point. I'llpause there, though drift along side, his marketing did a survey that talkedto more than five hunder marketers for their insights on conversationalmarketing. Talk about the highlights, some of the things that marketers toldyou some of the things that were were surprising when you talk to these fiveunder marketers, one of the one of the things that we'veseen and we've done the survey now for three years. So we actually have youknow three years of of data. It's really interesting to see how it's trending in these different directions,we're seeing a more and more were seen more and more companies adoptconversation, marketing solutions number one right, and I really thinkthis this pandemic that we've had to live through, unfortunately, was atrigger point trigger event for more and more businesses to use somethinglike conversational marketing and sales...

...because they almost had like no choiceto so one of the stats was we asked to question around Ai poweredconversational marketing, making you more accessible and more invaluablethan ever before? How do you feel about that? Eighty two percent, four to fivepeople, are finding. You know that type of solution and AI power conversationmarketing solution to be very valuable to their sales and marking strategy.Right, so that's like that's pretty significant, that's gone up a decentamount and what's also interesting, we talked.We talked about engagement like about forty five percent of the peoplesurveyed, and this was like five hundred people in this last latestsurvey is a pretty big sample size. Do endaemon rates increased over the lasteighteen months and pen in the pandemic so, like so more people are engagingthrough this digital buying prance or how do you Ersilia the digital buyingexperience? How do you make your? How do you make your marketing and salesfunnel if you will more by or centric what we're seeing through this data ismore and more people are a adopting conversational marketing and thenconversational selling to do just that and what's interesting is also is likebyers expectations. So we ask questions to this audience about like the actualsolution, the technology, those things, but then how do you buy his Btius? Sowe looked at a kind of both sides of this coin and the expectations aroundquick and personalized experiences from these betyars, mostly managers,directors and above those experiences and what not have grown by twenty six percent,meaning they expect more of them by twenty six percent year over year andan immediate response so when you're actually reaching out to a venter toyour point on the seventy percent mark when you're finally ready to talk to avendor is the last interesting stat I'll show right now the immediate response has grown sixtyfour percent year over year. So more and more of these be to be buyers anddecision makers are expecting immediacy, instant response when it comes toreaching out to a vendor, and if you...

...don't have that guess, what's going tohappen, was likely they're going O, probably go to one of your competitorsor they'll. Look the other way right attention pans to your point. I don'tknow if you ask this question, but I am curious about the disappearance ofconferences and the impact that it had on conversational marketing when youthink about it. Many BB companies spent fifty sixty seventy percent of theirmarketing budgets going to conferences. Why? Because they wanted to haveconversations with prospects and customers, it was the way that it wasan easy way for marketers to drive mls. The sales guys could nurture leadscould connect with customers and drive loyalty and as important up cells. Sowhat do you think the impact or the correlation was between the decline andconferences, and they may come back soon or not, and the rise inconversational marketing? It's a great question. You know: We've pivoted allof our events to be virtual, we're going to be back in person finally nextyear, but what we've done? Iss We've integrated with some systems like ontwenty four another upcoming event platform, called gold cast and put theconversational experience in front of that. So E, there's like you, can makethe actual event experience more conversation, but but before you evenget them to the event. What markets have had to do is pivot. Their channelmix to your point like an event, is kind like a channel right. You canthat's me where you can reach people now. The channels are going to be muchor have been. Excuse me much more like digital based, so we see our customersusing conversational marketing within their paid search and social strategywithin their organic. You know search strategy within the email strategy.Those are some great ways you can pair up, because you know where the visitorscoming from. You know they're coming from organic church. You know they'recoming from an email, you know they're coming from exact paid ad, and then youcan serve up this really contextually rich conversational experience on yourwebsite page based off of again, like we said in the beginning of thispodcast, who is coming to WHO's coming to that page. Where are they comingfrom email, pay that organic, etc? And...

...then what are they engaging with? Inthis case, your questions around there gaging with an event? Are they lookingto sign up for the event? Are they looking to get more information aboutit? Are they looking for the recording you can make it super easy to help them find and do exactly what they're?Looking for with that event, and then, furthermore, what the beauty of allthis stuff is your sales Tan we've empowered them the sellers to say, Hey,here's all of the people that you normally would have seen at this eventcoming to our website, signing up for the event attending the event, here'swhat they did during the event and giving them again those kind ofbehavior signals of signals of intent and being able to still continue thebuying help the by or by through those through those data points versus theimpersona piece I mean. So I think I think it's a combination of both in thefuture, but it's really making sure that you can provide people. We keepgoing back to this real time idea mark the real time insights into what yourbuyers are doing, and I think the question I was asking was that when inperson events disappeared, conversations has appeared,opportunities to have relevant, contextual, real time conversationdisappeared and I guss the answered. I'm looking forward to conversationalmarketing fill the gap. Companies need those interactions, they needconversations and did do they turn to conversational marketing last year.Well, I think they did turn a conversation market. That's so thatthat the study said, but you don't you don't as a market, you don't turn tothe solution. You follow the buyer. The buyers shifted their C shifted how theyengage with companies. Instead of going to these events like I were saying,they shifted to digital channels, digital virtual events and what not andyou can use conversational marketing in those channels with those channels tocreate better engagement, create better experiences. So the short of the answeris a hundred percent. Yes, but I think the best companies, and now what mostcoupier are doing is saying. Oh well, where a my byres gone, you know becausethere's no events and how can I meet them where they are with conversationmarketing? Let's shift hares a little bit and talk about drifts, approach tocontent marketing as the thpot...

...contented community. I'm sure you got alot to say. First, I'm interested in how drifts,content marketing or its approach to content marketing has evolved over thepast eighteen months. To me, content has always been king, but there hasbeen no doubt that content has really stepped up. As things like conferences,happened, happened can provide a little bit of context in terms of how driftsapproach to content has changed. Yes, it's the timely question because Iactually posted something today on Linkedin today being the end of October,things actually October twenty seventh for those interested in when werecorded this, but I posted something on Linkedin thatcomes from an we love research original research, a drift behind it veryinsightful. So we did another survey to about a hundred, I think, is a hundredand fifteen marketing leaders, the vast majority of those people being directorand above B, Tob marketing meters. so VP COS director level and the numberone most important thing they say. is they stay in the next five years? Thatthey're, like really you know focused on, is content marketing. Fifty threepercent of that to happen and they've actually found that contentmarketing as released to like pipeline generation and the impact on it, wentfrom like number seven on the list last year to this year. When we did thesurvey, it was number one. So again, I think it's this this event thathappened with this pandemic and it's made people realize well. We need to bemore helpful than ever on the digital side of things. We need to stand out.Somehow we can't reach people in person. We can't go to the events. We can't goto the dinners. We can't do these field events. We can't do all these things,for how are we going to really really stand out and honestly content?Marketing is a differentiated for the brand, so we we just doubled down on.We were always very heavy in the content marketing space. You know I have a deep background incontent it I was a comes, but for eight and a half years, so I know, content pretty well anddrifts also started their brand. It's a very powerfull from a very likepowerful content, marketing standpoint.

What I mean by that is early days, whatdrifted David cancel and this case Dave Gerhart, started what I call a greatcorner: Stone content asset in the form of a podcast, it's named seeking wisdomand that that was really one of the ways that also helped us not only growthe drift brand and make it stand out and make it unique, but also helps tobring conversation marketing to the world through that fo right, you know,we wrote a book on the Category Conversation Marketing, there's a wholebook on it right best selling business book on it we wrote many books. Thiswon't scale as an example, all these different dozens of different ways ofof how to do marketing that doesn't technically scale but has really strongRoi. So I think our contagalli been strong now it's about, though, reallymaking sure you're smart with your content and understanding the spend toimpact of your content so understanding you know all this time and money andeffort you're putting into your content. How is it really turning into the right?The right leads, but really the right pipeline for Your Business and how areyou using content more and more than ever before, to drive customer success?So we have a full life cycle, content team, her mark, and we have three overall content teams for maybe but three that focus on the content across theentire customer experience. So Pre am post. So that's another thing I thinkbusinesses have started to shift to as well during the pandemic. How do youthink? How do you mitre? The content is consistent across all the touch points.What has surprised you and drift in terms of how and where people areconsuming content Lincoln, for example, has emerged as a great place to to getinsight from lots of different kinds of people, but are there other platformsor other ways in which content has been delivered? That cut you by surprised oremerged faster than you expected to me live streaming is superinteresting. I mean a lot of these platforms. Have added live streamingright like linked in live instagram, I...

...mean everyone now has a live streamingopponent and a lot of that has been born out of the gaming space. Now,there's like live stream like online shopping, that's taken from like the TVworld right like the almost like the live infomercial. If you will, the livecomponent of content is super fascinating and a lot of people thinkwell like it's like as a webinars content, I'm like heck yeah this that'swhat that is. Content like out of event at the end of the day is two things:it's like great content. Hopefully it's great content and it's a network kingexperience right if, if it's more in person right, but you know from avirtual standpoint, your virtual event of the last eighteen month really hashinged on your ability to create differentiated and highly valuablecontent for the audience. So that's another reason why I think everyone isdoubling down on this and realizing. If we did do this right and we really havea unique brand voice, we have a unique point of view in the market. We havesome thought leadership does hate to be crazy, though leadership, but we havesomething that is uniquely different. We can use this as a competitiveadvantage for our business and we can really like use this not only acrossmarketing but in sales, NCAS to add additional value to the actual productwe sell and you can charge a premium then right in your premium brand. Inthat case, and that's where content has this effect, I think one of my recentpodcast I talked to Ross Simmons is a very well known, bb content marketer.The thing that he talks about is not just content production, butdistribution and repurposing content to maximize ry. What is drifts approach tothose to content pillars? You have to actually have a wholeframework called back to content. We purposingframework litle it. I have this completely laid out for my team use itall the time. It's four different hours. It's reused, refresh repackage reposition, so we use refresh repackage reposition all of your content assets,especially your corner, corner, stone costs and assets and there's there'stechnically my opinion. Five, maybe six...

...chorus on content assets that at leastwe definitely create a drift. We take that into consideration. You know we doquarterly planning at drift. We have a dis notion of integrated campaigns thatwe run really focus on the audience, the trigger event, what are the goalsof the campaign and then the the highest level messaging, and then wemap out offers by channel to get that content to get that in that greatinformation out into the market. So so Ross's point in your point is extremelyimportant right. It's like yeah! You can play in your content. You canproduce your content, but if you don't think about promoting your content withdeep collaboration with your demandin or in our chase revenue, marketing teamyou're missing a significant part of the content marketing game so yeah wehave these four hours and- and we use it all the time, it's how you atomize,we kind of call the solar system strategy. Absolutely here's a toughquestion: how does drift quantify the success of content marketing because,obviously there's there's the standard, Kpis and metricsthat marketers andsales teams use? And then there's this whole dark social phenomena that a lotof people are talking about. So when you look at the success of your content,marketing efforts, how do you tell whether you're being super successful?How do you tell what's do what you're doing well and what's not working? Whatare the different elements that you look at? It's a really good question.It's something! That's asked a lot, there's two ways at the highest levelto think about it, engagement and pipe line, and then what you look in themiddle and I can get the details of all of these things, but I'll just keep itsimple to start with engagement in Pipin and, what's in the middle ofthose two things is how many of those engagements and an engagement could bea download of a book, a website session, a social media engagement. We haveliked literally, I think, eighty or ninety different types of engagementsthat we measure across our content community team, how many of thoseengagements and some of them you can't identify herr, but how many of thoseengagements that you can identify fit into your ideal customer profile.Basically, are a quality engagement, so...

...it's then you get into like the nuance,a like. Well, what type of model using first touch last touch multi touchattribution. We have a multi touch attribution model that looks like thatlooks at a more tops down view of that model. We also have a bottoms up model,but it ours right now is more multi touch. Attribution, there's no perfectway to go with that to your pop, like just got to pick one and stick withdiffer a little bit and figure it out, but the other thing that I thinkcontent market has failed to measure when it comes from the content. Fromfrom a content. Standpoint is how is your sales team and CS team using yourcontent, so we have a solution called high spot and we use, and so weactually see like on a weekly basis. We have about three sand engagements withour content from our sales and CST members in high spot, it's hike twelvethousand a month. That's awesome! That means they're using this content tohelp people buy and learn more about drift and like be successful, a driftand ultimately, what you want to see you know is your engagement growingquarter of a quarter year over year and then, therefore, if you have yourrevenue, demand stuff dialed in enough that should follow suit in many ways. Afinal question, David Counsel, obviously has a veryhigh profile and he creates a lot of great content, including the podcast.As you mentioned, how does Drift Leverage David? How does he manage histime in terms of creating high value content at a time when, obviously, hehas other priorities and he's stretched in different directions? You know:What's your strategy, your content strategy when it comes to David, they Imean David in Manias, is like the quasi chief marketing officer. If you willright any co, any great co should be like the chief sales person, the chiefmarketing officer. You know he's like selling right, the son of the business,so we do as much as we can to support him in that endeavor. So, just for, asan example there's a big Web stoma happening in Portugal early Novembernext week. It is he's going to be speaking on that right at that drug. Myteam helped him, and so someone on our communications team build hispresentation and then what are we going to do with that? We're going to wepurpose it right. I gontain right's...

...right, it's like so that's an exampleright. We have someone who does ghost writing to help him, take his ideas andreally scale them out right. So I think that's really important. Many companiesdo that. If you don't do that for your executives now I think you'd, a hundredpercent. You have someone that helps them right. They have amazing ideas,they're, brilliant people in many ways and there's something to be said that aconstant marketers job it might not be the best term but you're, almost actingas a broker right you're, helping take someone's ideas and wisdom andknowledge and experiences and share them with someone else. That's how Isee it not just for David but alias Ales. Has this American dream podcastand American Dream News letter. I see that with Katy or c Mo, I see withanyone who doesn't amount to be executive level, people a drift,contribute to our content and our customers contribute to our content allthe time. That's what a great content marketer does they actually don'tcreate a lot of the original content they help in the facilitation ofbringing those other people along and helping them share, what they know andgetting into the right hands. One tactical question: when it comes topulling content out of an executive like David: Is it a matter of sittingdown with him for half an hour or an hour and saying? What are you thinking?What are your big ideas? What kind of opinions do you have? Where do youthink the industry is going and simply recording his conversations and thenrepackaging them in a block post or knee book or some kind of content?asced? Is it as simple as that they tell you what they want to say and theysay it. So you just package it up properly. Is that is that a simple wayof doing things, one way of doing things? It can be what we found to beeven more successful. I've seen this, you know both Drift House Pot is getgive them something to react to right, and then you can ask him somequestions about that, but like give them something to react to, and thenmaybe you to come back with something else then and then like that's thebasis for like the content and the questions and what they're going toshare with you. But that's the tactical thing I think you know give themsomething, and also I I mean in our...

...case, like we're, really leaning hardinto the whole whole conversation. Space Conversation, marketing salescomes to show commerce even and the the leader of the business you knowis going to have to be the person who really sells the vision right and sellswhat makes your company uniquely different so like. How do you thenorganize that within a campaign across your marketing team, so our tacticalthing also is like have a campaign. We use briefs how a campaign level briefthat then, can take all the stuff that your executives are saying in our caseDavid and use it across these different channels. So, like you, got to get toyour point of bout promotion, think about the whole journey in what you'redoing with your executive, don't think just linked in yeah he's EllingtonStrategy. Just things a twitter but, like you know, he's got a he's, got anewsletter that we do every every Saturday called the one thing webranded that we use a lot of his seeking wisdom, podcast content stillso it's like, I think you got to take you're going to be tactical and how youapproach it, but you also have to like create a plan, final question: wherecan people learn more about you and drift? I mean drift drift com, a driftinsider. We like to think of it as like the number one place, marketers andsales people can go to learn it's a free community. We have a ton of almosteverything's. You know not gated. You got to sign up for an account to getsome of our more exclusive content over more. You know in depth, courses andclasses, but it's all free drift inside or dripped our compash insider and thenyeah. You can just follow me on linked in twitter. You can text me. I got myphone number, nine, seven, eight, two, two, six, six, nine six five and youcan't call that number is only for texting conversations after all, ranmessaging, but shoot me a text happy to talk to you thanks to everyone for listening toanother episode of marketing spark. If you enjoyed the conversation, pleaseleave a review subscribe by Itunes and spotify, or your favorite podcast outand share by a social media to learn more about how I help PBS companies asa Fractional Co for Tucic advisor and coach send an email to mark a marketingsmart. I code or connect with me on...

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